UH OH! Now what? *NEW UPDATE*

[PDCCD]

Thanks. That increases the odds of damage to the cylinder walls, valves and head. I've started a complaint with the BBB. I'll try the states DA tomorrow, but this is Maine. Now if i still lived in NY, those guys were like consumer pitbulls. I used to love to hear headlines about spitzer, that guy was awesome. He went after anybody and everybody, and won. He made too many enemies though. that's still a guy i'd want in my corner in a fight like this. We'll see what happens. I plan on trying to have the dealer rescue the friggin screw and put it all back together. If he can't I'll have AAA bring it home and try myself. Change the plugs and PCV, replace the intake, and run it till it dies. Either way i'll have to buy a new engine, might as well run this one into the ground while i hunt for another. Problem is, if i go this route, and in the end get Nissan to submit, I won't get anywhere. I'll have done the work myself. If i have the dealer do it right, and then lose the fight, then i'm out a ton of money to the dealer. Not sure how i should progress yet.

 

Pete

[navygz19]

Sounds like a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

 

Sucks man, I've always been a fan of your truck too!

[morpheus]

I told the local service manager here to his face he needs to do the research and get his facts straight, i dont care how aware he personally is of the issue that im having but when its happening all over the country or world, they need to take notice and if its not yet an expensive enough issue to recall or take responsibility for, at least be aware and point us to the proper fix with the proper pieces, show us your on the side of the car and the consumer instead of the sales managers....sigh lol have had this issues with the screws on the pathy and on the 2k maximas (ex wifes old car) there was a problem with the DEK manifold actuator valve or whatever that opened the second stage of the intake breaking off inside, of course old folk who never get to the upper rpm range wont have that problem but the people who drive the car are also smart enough to find a way to fix it without having to spend $500+ on a new intake.

 

oh i dont know that it made it all the way through i just meant out of the engine, if i pulled the cat i may just find a lil brass nub that used to be a screw :O lol

 

I'm going to try to say this as politically correct as I can.

 

1) As a service manager, we have NO read: ZERO control over what nissan will or will not warranty.

 

2) There is a specific timeline of warranty on parts. 3yr/60,000km/36,000mi or 5yr/100,000km/60,000mi

 

3) Once that timeline is up, it is no longer Nissan's responsibility to pay for your repairs, it is the owner of the vehicle.

 

4) If Nissan decides that there is a reasonable grounds to issue a product campaign or safety recall then they will do so.

 

5) Until #4 is enacted, see #1

 

 

So there is no reason to get on someones case and tell them to do their research, there's still nothing they can do.

 

Did anyone mention the mileage on this vehicle anywhere? I didn't see it posted.

 

P.S. I'm not exactly sure what material they are, yes, they are not brass because they are magnetic, however in the altima's I saw that dropped them they were rolled up in tiny brass looking balls, so they must be a similar metal.

Edited August 28, 2008 by morpheus

[Jarsiff]

In my situation(s) i didnt expect them to pay for it, in both cases I went in having done my homework and was asking for the service department to look into the issue to assist me and was basically laughed at and told i had no idea what i was talking about because he had never heard anything about the problem i was asking them to look into. that conversation was involving a 2k maxima, I was also told during a complimentary so many point inspection on my 98 maxima (coupon thing) that the factory trained techs are taught to blame any aftermarket part first and track other problems second, he took me aside and told me this because i had a high flow intake and exhaust system and was asking about the idle fluctuating slightly.. the thing that irritates me about my experience and most others is the treatment most of us get even when we have some research to back up our claims, and especially in my case where i wasnt running about screaming recall as it seems your thinking i may have been,

1 i had an issue, possible cause and research to back that up

2 i went to the service department for assistance

3 i didnt get anything but options for VERY expensive diagnostic services and the feeling that i had no business diagnosing my own vehicle

 

lastly as a service manager, it was not my intention to offend you and I hope that being a member of a community like this and being in the position that you're in with nissan that you may find a way to make these situations at least feel at least a little less alienating to folks like us, even when you dont have the option to "give" us anything.

[Simon]

I know Morpheus personally, and he deals with our local club quite a bit, and is always a fair guy. I think it's all in how you approach the problem.....

 

If you go in kicking and screaming and making a fuss, they're going to deny you any assistance. Not that a person in Mike's position can overturn Nissan's decision, however, with him pulling for you, it's possible that it'd make a difference.

 

If you go in with the attitude that the service manager is your friend, and is there to help, I'm sure you'll have a lot better response to your problem.

 

 

That said, there's good and bad in every field. A$$holes get jobs all the time. Maybe your service manager is a d!ck. At that point, I'd look for another dealership, but not before taking a step back and asking myself if something I did caused him to act that way.

[Jarsiff]

it took me a couple visits before i got to that point, through dealings with a couple vehicles and the way I was treated I ended up frustrated and angry, thats when I told him what i said earlier. As i stated above, when i did go in ALL i was looking for was some help from someone who knew the vehicle better than I did, I didnt expect them to take care of it or warranty anything, I would have been very happy to have my problem acknowledged and to be pointed to the best options to get it fixed, but no I was either dumb or id have to just replace large spendy components to get at small side issues....

I didnt mean for this to turn into some big deal and I certainly didnt mean to jack the thread here....just so's ya know

[PDCCD]

From Webster:

 

A) work·man·ship

Pronunciation:

\-ˌship\

Function:

noun

Date:

1523

 

1: something effected, made, or produced : work2: the art or skill of a workman; also : the quality imparted to a thing in the process of making <a vase of exquisite workmanship>

 

 

 

material

Function:

noun

Date:

1556

 

1 a (1): the elements, constituents, or substances of which something is composed or can be made (2): matter that has qualities which give it individuality and by which it may be categorized <sticky material> <explosive materials> b (1): something (as data) that may be worked into a more finished form <material for a biography> (2): something used for or made the object of study <material for the next semester> (3): a performer's repertoire <a comedian's material> c: matter 3b d: cloth e: a person potentially suited to some pursuit <varsity material> <leadership material>2 a: apparatus necessary for doing or making something <writing materials> b: matériel

 

 

C) neg·li·gent

Pronunciation:

\-jənt\

Function:

adjective

Etymology:

Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin neglegent-, neglegens, present participle of neglegere

Date:

14th century

 

1 a: marked by or given to neglect especially habitually or culpably b: failing to exercise the care expected of a reasonably prudent person in like circumstances2: marked by a carelessly easy manner

— neg·li·gent·ly adverb

 

 

Multiple choice now. Which would you describe Nissan's continuous denial of a problem with the power valve screws in the Pathfinder? Has this happened before? Yes. Have they been notified/made aware of the problem? Yes, years ago. Have they made any attempt to notify their staff, employees, or customers of the problem? No. Have they made any prudent attempt to eliminate the problem? No. It's occurred in other engines with their products. And they seem to refuse to follow the industry standard of pressing these screws in so they can't back out. Am i mad, i believe justifiably so, yes. Their warranty is designed to cover materials and workmanship. This is neither of those issues. This is purely an attempt to save money by first and foremost refusing to acknowledge the problem. I'm angry with the service manager because of his treating my like i was nuts first and denying he's ever heard of the problem. Then the next day telling me he's only seen one other case. Now he's telling me that yes, it's crazy for this to have happened, it's obviously a factory error. Which is it? Am i angry with nissan usa, yes. The customer service rep was curt and didn't seem to care what i had to say, she just wanted me off the phone as soon as possible. Mileage is irrelevant. This is not a wear item. This is not a problem with workmanship or materials. This has become Negligence. Yes, i'm angry. I've got a Japanese engine with less than 100,000 that needs to be replaced, i feel, because nissan won't support it's customers and let them know it needs to be addressed, and helping them get it done. I understand Morpheus' perspective, his posts are always informative and appreciated. But their putting food on his plate, and taking food off of mine.

 

I'm bringing it home, the tec couldn't find the screw, and suggested if i was capable, to keep trying before putting it back together. So i will. I've got a long weekend, so i'll try to dig it out and put it back together and see if i can save the engine.

 

Pete

[Jarsiff]

I'd lend a hand if i was near, all i can say is yet when your looking at it its a little intimidating, but once you get started, its really not that bad good luck man I hope you find it.

[Zibi]

Eh, the dealership my brother worked for for a number of years certainly let a few things slide on warranty for staff and family that they would not have done for a regular customer.

[morpheus]

To the best of my knowledge, the fact that a company does not issue a recall on something does not mean that they are denying that it exists.

 

Bottom line, is it's not a safety issue, recalls are only issued if there is a safety concern, this is not a safety issue, they will never issue a recall.

 

Is it a royal pain in the ass for someone that it happens to? absolutly.

 

Product campaigns on the other hand are a different story. That's when a manufacturer comes to the table and says.. you know.. we've had so many of these have problems, that we should issue a campaign to have these fixed in the interest of customer satisfaction.

 

For a company to do that, there has to be a certain % of failures, I'm not privy to that number, I have no idea what it is.

 

Do the screws come out? we already know the answer to that. How many vehicles were sold with these in them? what's the % of failure on them? I don't know the answer to that either.

 

 

Did the service manager you were dealing with treat you poorly? maybe, that's for you to decide.

 

I've said it before, I've only ever seen 1 3.5l with a screw come out, ever.. If I had never seen that before, I would probably tell a customer that I'd never heard of that problem. Doesn't mean that I'm trying to hide something, or protect nissan.

 

Are there shops out there that try to rip people off? Yes, there is. I've personally worked for one that I refused to sell work that I didn't believe the vehicle required and was rewarded with a pink slip..

You need to feel comfortable and trust where you're having your service done. If you don't, you need to find somewhere else.

 

As for letting something slide under warranty as Zibi mentioned, there's not really any such thing.

 

Nissan's warranty is black and white. There's failure specs on parts and inspection procedures.

 

Anything can be "covered" under warranty, that doesn't mean it will be paid by the manufacturer.

 

You can bring your truck in for repair and I can replace anything I want and put it through warranty. You drive away, but when I send that invoice to Nissan for payment, if it doesn't meet critera, such as.. vehicle is over mileage, or over by date, they just reject it and do not pay for it. Then the dealership gets stuck with the bill.

 

If you have and engine that blew up because you never changed the oil in it, and I replaced it under warranty, you'd drive away with a new engine. I'd probably even get paid by Nissan for it. BUT they have anywhere from the day of payment, all the way up to 5 years to call me up and say, you know that engine you replaced? send us a copy of the maintenance records on it, and if I cannot supply them, they simply charge us back.

 

If a dealer lets something "slide" through under warranty, it's more likely something like my 2nd example than anything else.

[BowTied]

That sucks dude, I feel bad for ya. If you were closer, I'd help out.

 

I can confirm that the screws in my 02 are not brass. THe look like it, but I suspect they are a plain steel with a cadmium or zinc dichromate plating.

 

FWIW, the tear down was much easier than I thought. If the how-to I posted looks daunting it is only because I over explain or banter on needlessly sometimes... I ramble

 

When I went to buy the gaskets from the local dealer, the parts manager was helpful... but thought I was nuts - as far as he knew, the problem was only a rare case on the sentra-r models and he had never heard of it on a pathy. I emailed him some net links, so he knows now. Nevermind warranty/dollar issues, I was surprised that Nissan has not issued a notice/bulletin to their dealers to at least be aware of the problem and how to recognize/diagnose the issue. That is what makes it feel like a cover up. In all likelihood, it is a simple big coporate communcation problem that happens with any big company. Customer service (from a corporate level) used to be something at one time...

 

As to buying japanese to avoid 'this type of NA problem'... I bought a pathy to avoid the rattles and little things breaking all the time on some of my GM products. I have NEVER in many vehicles had this level of engine failure in a GM. My VQ would be toast likley by now if I not taken the steps last December (hopefully I did it correct!). I have run many GMs, and my family many GMs and Fords, sure with some issues, but not big dollar engine loss like this. Makes the annoying crap like rattles and squeaks and bi-annual alternators seem appealling in comparison. Love the pathy otherwise tho.

Edited August 29, 2008 by BowTied

[morpheus]

That sucks dude, I feel bad for ya. If you were closer, I'd help out.

 

I can confirm that the screws in my 02 are not brass. THe look like it, but I suspect they are a plain steel with a cadmium or zinc dichromate plating.

 

FWIW, the tear down was much easier than I thought. If the how-to I posted looks daunting it is only because I over explain or banter on needlessly sometimes... I ramble

 

When I went to buy the gaskets from the local dealer, the parts manager was helpful... but thought I was nuts - as far as he knew, the problem was only a rare case on the sentra-r models and he had never heard of it on a pathy. I emailed him some net links, so he knows now. Nevermind warranty/dollar issues, I was surprised that Nissan has not issued a notice/bulletin to their dealers to at least be aware of the problem and how to recognize/diagnose the issue. That is what makes it feel like a cover up. In all likelihood, it is a simple big coporate communcation problem that happens with any big company. Customer service (from a corporate level) used to be something at one time...

 

As to buying japanese to avoid 'this type of NA problem'... I bought a pathy to avoid the rattles and little things breaking all the time on some of my GM products. I have NEVER in many vehicles had this level of engine failure in a GM. My VQ would be toast likley by now if I not taken the steps last December (hopefully I did it correct!). I have run many GMs, and my family many GMs and Fords, sure with some issues, but not big dollar engine loss like this. Makes the annoying crap like rattles and squeaks and bi-annual alternators seem appealling in comparison. Love the pathy otherwise tho.

 

Ya, it's not bad at all to do, as long as you keep track of where all the hoses and plugs go it's fairly straight forward. A couple hours for someone who's done it before, or an afternoon for someone who hasn't sould be plenty.

[PDCCD]

Alright, I'm done with the excavation. I removed all the coils and plugs, as well as the lower intake. Only had trouble with one bolt really, the rest was strait forward and relatively easy. I wasn't able to locate any remnants of the screw that i know of. Lots of carbon and stuff that looked like, i don't know, brownish dirt. All the plugs looked fine, no bent electrodes. Did a compression test, they all seemed to get up around 150+ psi. Didn't have access to a leak down tester unfortunately. I put a piece of vac hose attached to my vacuum trying to suck the screw out. I also tried a small powerful magnet. Nothing. I even bought a Rigid bore scope at the Home depot, but it was too big to fit down the plug hole, so that was no help. Used the starter to move the pistons in their cycle hoping to dislodge it. Nothing.

So i bought new iridium plugs, cleaned the coolant sensor and PCV valve, and began putting it back together. It took a little while because i brought it home from the dealer dis-assembled, so it was like a big puzzle where the hoses and bolts went, but with a little logic application, it appears i figured it out ( i hope lol). I installed the "screw kit" from nissan which was the 12 screws with little washers that the original screws didn't have. Of course i added red loctite.

 

Fired it up, and nothing. No tick. There's a faint one, but i think that's always been there. The loud ticking i took it in for is gone. Now all that's left is for me to hope it's in the cat and not lodged in the piston or head, waiting to rattle loose and bend a valve. Soooo, it appears i may have dodged an expensive engine swap somehow. I'm not sure what else to say, except if your reading this, and you've procrastinated like i did, please for your sake, don't take my luck as typical, and get out there and check your power valve screws! THIS IS NOT DIFFICULT. Simple tools will suffice. You should be able to save the original gaskets. All you need is some time and red loctite. You may want to spend the $12 for the new screws from the dealer, but honestly, i'm not sure what the little washer they added is gonna help with, it's a flat washer, not a loc washer.

 

Thank you to everyone who offered their help and support in this thread, and the others that added to the power valve screw thread.

Edited September 1, 2008 by PDCCD

[laxman0324]

Great news man, it would have really sucked to spend a lot of time and money...I really really wish my VG had more power but I haven't heard of any problems with them

[morpheus]

There is no screw kit for the pathfinder, just the 2.5, but you can use them on the pathfinder with no problems, thats why there is a washer on them.. they're meant for the 2.5l.

 

If you really want to ensure you have no problems, you should remove the manifold and cat to make sure the screw isn't sitting in there. Down the road it could potentially dislodge and re-enter the engine.