The true state of affairs in the new "World Economy"

[PDCCD]

So, i'm on the phone tonight with a sales manager at 4WP ordering some wheels for my pathy, and we get in a discussion about my Arb Sahara that's 4 months late. He tells me how their company is in a bit of a bind because "90%" of their manufactures use China to produce product. Well, China's shut down a large percentage of their factories over the recent couple of months trying to stem the pollution for the Olympic games. As a result, 4WP for example, is very behind in getting product to customers. Sorta a State Mandated bottleneck. Not a huge deal for off road parts, but i wonder how many people besides me wonder just how much power we've sold to a third world communist country? Seriously, i don't believe the Cold War is really been won or is even near over. But now, wow, what leverage they have, if they choose to use it. Which i can't imagine they wouldn't when the time suits them.

 

Oh well, rant off.

[GrimGreg]

Only reason they can function is because people are cheap, and tend to look at bottom line only. Our economy would truely tank if people tried to really buy all American. That's because they would go broke trying to and there would be shortages of product because the production numbers tend to be lower. China is still the largest population, pretty much always have been. All those people gotta do something besides grow rice.

 

Remeber this also, if we didn't import, all those dock workers that would be jobless, and all the truck drivers that would be flooding the market, trains sitting unused....

 

Also, remember the next time that minimum wage goes up (couple months), that the Chinese are probably still making a small fraction of that amount to make those cheap products. So how can an American manufacturer compete?

 

Can't have the cake and eat it too.

[PDCCD]

Only reason they can function is because people are cheap, and tend to look at bottom line only. Our economy would truely tank if people tried to really buy all American. That's because they would go broke trying to and there would be shortages of product because the production numbers tend to be lower. China is still the largest population, pretty much always have been. All those people gotta do something besides grow rice.

 

Remeber this also, if we didn't import, all those dock workers that would be jobless, and all the truck drivers that would be flooding the market, trains sitting unused....

 

Also, remember the next time that minimum wage goes up (couple months), that the Chinese are probably still making a small fraction of that amount to make those cheap products. So how can an American manufacturer compete?

 

Can't have the cake and eat it too.

 

Trust me Grim, i get the economics. It's the politics that scare me. We're playing with a tiger in a paper cage. It's a short sighted reality. Also, in my opinion, your reply seems a bit over simplified, so i'll respond in same. If we bought american, then americans would have jobs, to in turn buy american products. Prices rise, wages rise. Healthy, sustainable cycle. Now, the money leaves, and never comes back. Problem is, top 1% of the pile want larger profit margins, therefore, labor being largest cost in any production model, find cheaper labor (third world). Build up middle class of consumers in third world, payroll costs increase, find cheaper labor, repeat...

Next, traditionally, American products were sought after world wide for their quality (and still are, by brand name, just not production origin), so the dockworkers would be busy...exporting, as would the truckers, trains, yada, yada. Please don't dance into the tired argument that unions ruined our country, if that's where your tempted to go. Greed ruined this country. Consumer greed, wanting everything for nearly nothing, and corporate greed, seeing people as digits. But then we can get into ethics, morals, and social engineering. I don't really want to go there, not enough time in my blue collar day.

 

Just wanted to point out that a country that still has ICBM's pointed at us, and reportedly building several new diesel submarines a year to say the least, now have unchecked economic control, because we wanted cheaper tv's.

[GrimGreg]

Yes, I gave simple answers, didn't feel like writing a book about China vs America and who's really to blame. Unions helped and hurt, and are no longer needed here. You are right on the greed thing, though it is the little blue collars to blame as much as the CEOs. It's the blue collars buying all the Chinese products, as much as the CEOs having the Chinese make the products. The root of the evil is inflation, as you said there is a good bit of greed, and the more people think they can get for one item trickles down onto the rest raising all prices. I think we have inflated past the true worth of things and are going into a correction period, so people whine, cry and panic about worth, and lost equity. The flaw in your system is that prices rise, but not all wages rise nor at the same percentage causing stagnation worse than we have already.

 

Blah...blah...blah

[Precise1]

but i wonder how many people besides me wonder just how much power we've sold to a third world communist country?

A lot. Who do you think funds Iraq? China. Bush has been selling dollars, one of the reasons they are worth so much less, not to mention the deficit...

 

So how can an American manufacturer compete?

Cut the redicuious management fat and pay unskilled workers what they are worth.

 

Problem is, top 1% of the pile want larger profit margins, therefore, labor being largest cost in any production model, find cheaper labor (third world). and corporate greed, seeing people as digits.

Bingo, this is the largest single source of the problem that I see. For example, when Chrysler and Daimler Benz, the CEO of DB pointed out that he made $12 million a year flat where as the Chrysler CEO made $26 million, including stock options and bonuses. His point was that he himself was overpaid and WTF is up with bonuses? You do the job well and you get to keep it, you don't get bonuses for doing your freakin job!!

I worked for a large corporation that got a new CEO. Next, maintenance, R&D and entire devisions were slashed. Stocks went up and management/share holders made $. 3 years later, he left with huge bonuses when the stocks were starting to drop and have stayed lower than before he was in charge. Meanwhile, the company infrastructure is in shambles and new product development is very weak. Any idiot can make the books look good for a while, it's the long term sustainability that's important. Trading a few years of profit at the cost of long term viability is called skimming...

Look at the Enron crap. When is very rich rich enough? Never, I guess...

 

You are right on the greed thing, though it is the little blue collars to blame as much as the CEOs. It's the blue collars buying all the Chinese products, as much as the CEOs having the Chinese make the products.

I essentially agree but there is more choice with the CEOs than the blue collars, which incidentally, I am... Personally, I try to avoid buying Chinese good in particular, but also imported goods. If I can get a something made in the USA for a reasonable price (still higher than imported), I'll buy it.

 

I've been in manufacturing for 15 years and have watched it decline steadily. The US was built on industry, but greed and laziness is ruining the industrial sector. World economy, yes, it's prevalent, but no country can afford to ignore it's own industry so badly. What happens when no one is willing to make our parts? Not much, I haven't met a young machinist for a long time...

 

B

[TrailChaser]

"The High Cost of Low Prices"... That's a video/documentary every walmart shopper NEEDS to see.

 

BOYCOTT Walmart if you want to make a difference at all.

[PDCCD]

"The High Cost of Low Prices"... That's a video/documentary every walmart shopper NEEDS to see.

 

BOYCOTT Walmart if you want to make a difference at all.

 

Is that the one with the Rubbermaid story? I've seen that. Also a good read is the "United States of Walmart", that was a nice litte summery of our mess. I guess to me, i can sit back and blame corprate greed all day long, but i think, that in order to truly get a hold on the problem, we all have to look in a mirror and start the changes there. Call it human nature, contribute it to social engineering by marketing firms, call it whatever, but we've voulentarily enslaved ourselves with our hunger, our addiction for possesions. And we'll turn a blind eye to our neihbors and fellow citizens to secure "MORE" for ourselves. It's risen to the point of our economy being a religion gone wrong. But like I said earlier, then we can get into discussions of Morality, ethics, and even the ideal population figure for a sustainable society. Another great read on our current state would be "Deep Economy". Some interesting thoughts in that book i seemed to find value in. Economically, this country historically created (with obvious exceptions, i'm summarizing) a health economic cycle. For Example:

Agriculture was our economic base for a while-

 

Farmers employed people from community, who sold product to retailers, who sold product back to people within the community, who worked for farmer. Health sustainable cycle.

 

Next we moved to manufacturing:

Compay employed people from community to make product. Company sold product to retailer. Retailer sold product to customer, who got money from manufacturer (employer) healthy cycle. Money revolves. Stays in community to be recycled sorta.

 

Now:

Walmart (for example, not the only "villan") sells product to people, people not making enough money use credit. money leaves community(country), and does not return, except as low paying retail/CS. In this cycle, the money will eventually run out, there's nothing generating sustainable wealth for the masses (middle class).

 

Sorry my example sucks. I usually use a picture to explain myself, but i don't know how on the forum. Point is, money generates money for a community. If the money leaves the community or country, where will the money come from? Chinese peasants aren't able to afford our products. India either, don't forget their participation in this.

[FUELER]

i love walmart

[zonianbrat]

All good points. Although Wal-Mart Supercenters do have the good prices on food. (compared to other stores in my town) so I shop there.

[FUELER]

nice