Slick Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 YES! My friends just got word their home is still standing! All their efforts to make their property defensible (clearing brush, trees, grass, pine needles etc) paid off! OH! that's awesome news!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pezzy Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 That is awesome news. You forgot to add living with really big poisonous bugs to the list of crappy things to live near or in fear of. (lol@the reason I wouldnt want to move somewhere warm) We dont have too much to fear here... pooey winters, thats about it. Oh, and they sat the nuke plant on a fault line, no biggie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittamaru Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 sorry, but To which part... the living in a bad location, or using a MOAB to end the fire? Think about it - a MOAB would burn off every SPEC of fuel in an instant and cause a vacuum that would suck out the fires. You realize just how powerful a MOAB is... it is, after all, the Mother Of All Bombs. A Nuke would be more effective... but the radiation and fallout and... yeah... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 (edited) To which part... the living in a bad location, or using a MOAB to end the fire? Think about it - a MOAB would burn off every SPEC of fuel in an instant and cause a vacuum that would suck out the fires. You realize just how powerful a MOAB is... it is, after all, the Mother Of All Bombs. A Nuke would be more effective... but the radiation and fallout and... yeah... lol i think it was the part about people being stupid who live in the woods/mountains...... if i could afford it, or there were jobs where i want to live, i too, would live in BFE away from the world. saying people are "dumb" for living in such a usually beautiful surrounding, P's me awf. it's like saying people are stupid for living in tornado alley, or Florida where hurricanes always hit...... most people don't have a choice, or love where they live, and are willing to risk it. i HATE calif, but up in the mountains is a whole nuther world. these fires like Martin said, are very unusual..... the crazy weather has played a HUGE part in their starting, and continuous burning..... this is uncommon. yes, we get fires, usually 3-5k acres..... and they get put out before anyone loses their house.... hell, my wheelin playground has been burnt 2 times in 5 years, to the tune of 75k acres. mother nature is just a mean old lady. Edited July 10, 2008 by Slick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittamaru Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 I'm not saying their dumb for living there. I'm saying it's stupid that it gets so much media attention every year when we know its going to happen and there are many other things going on in the world being totally ignored. I'm also saying it's stupid how they are being handled. They have how many firefighters in there now? How many BILLIONS of gallons of water have they dropped? Its had no effect... it's plan B time. Plan B = fight fire with fire. Remove the fuel, remove the air, fire goes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 yes, it happens every year, not quite to this extremity, but i agree, it's an annual thing. yes, the coverage was all you saw on tv, but now they are toning it down and just reporting the basics on what fires are burning and how containment is, and obviously our crappy air quality..... from all the smoke. i live 300 miles away from one of the fires, and have the smoke from it. they seem to talk about the air more than fires themselves. yup, a big vaccum would be nice to suck it all off. they have been setting fires to try and help. one problem is there is one fire they can't REACH, so it just has to burn with a little help from the planes dropping the gel stuff on them occasionally. it's very rough terrain up there. i must admit, after the angora fire, people took MUCH more notice of their surroundings and did a LOT to protect their homes more... clearing brush, building fire lines..... so in some cases. people/residents themselves can help prevent losing their homes.... but some just never think it'll happen to them i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 To which part... the living in a bad location, or using a MOAB to end the fire? Think about it - a MOAB would burn off every SPEC of fuel in an instant and cause a vacuum that would suck out the fires. You realize just how powerful a MOAB is... it is, after all, the Mother Of All Bombs. A Nuke would be more effective... but the radiation and fallout and... yeah... lol Methinks this would not meet the primary objective of saving peoples lives and homes..... That is what the firefighing efforts are centered on. The primary goal of firefighting in todays world (at least as practiced around here) is to contain the fire and minimize expensive damage, not to simply put out all fires. Cal Fire HAS learned from the mistakes in the past of putting out every single fire, resulting in dense and dangerous undergrowth. Most fires are now left to nature to contribute their normal benefits to the ecosystem. But when they threaten large towns and cities, well, the current thought is it is worth it to try to prevent massive loss of lives and homes. There are several dozen fires burning up here, but only a couple being aggressively fought. Even then, they focus on drawing battle lines just outside the areas where homes are and let fire go until it reaches that critical line. That's what all the hand and dozer crews do - cut and clear areas around homes to try save them. And the water and retardent drops are to protect and aid the hand crews. The battle line for Paradise is the shore of the Feather River - the fire is pretty much left to itself on the eastern bank (no homes), but there is massive effort to prevent anything getting started on the west bank as Paradise is up on top of the ridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 See if this link works: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&...256805&z=12 This hopefully shows what has and is going on. This fire originally started a couple weeks ago, but was not aggressively attacked until it started getting close to Concow to the east and Paradise to the west. Now the fight is on. See all the other little red fires? Most are being left alone, just closely monitored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Remove the fuel, remove the air, fire goes out. Thats a fine concept if you are dealing with putting out oil well fires or something, but NOT forest fires. Burns are monitored for a day or two after they have been "put out". Reason being, the fire is capable of going underground, ie burning root systems or smoldering trunks/stumps. These can flame up and restart fires previously thought to be put out. Not to mention hurling burning/reignighting materials hundreds of yards every direction is counter productive. If you bomb, the fire may be out in that immediate vicinity for the time being, but it would usually rekindle its self. Think of the gag birthday candles. *puff* goes out... relights... *puff* goes out... relights... *puff* goes out... relights... *puff* goes out... relights... Why waste the bombs and make craters? Trust me, if this was a valid method, it would long be in use. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 Tonight could be the longest night for Paradise. The fire fighters have been successfully holding the line at the Feather River (west branch) and have cut a firebreak along the entire eastern side of town. But.... Some of the weather models are predicting winds tonight. Some estimates as high as 40 mph in the canyons. Worst case scenario would be a fire storm like what hit the Oakland hills a few years ago. With winds of 40 mph, embers can get blown a long ways, sparking new fires. And the dry winds whip flames into quite a frenzy that generates more winds. Think Berlin or any of a number of Japanese cities during WWII. Much fear, to say the least. Here's to hoping those forecasts are wrong. Hadn't heard any air traffic an a couple hours, so I drove by the runway at lunch. 14 choppers sitting. The smoke is so thick they can not fly, let alone see where to dump water. It's up to dozers, ground crews, and mother nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 In a perverse form of good news, the evacuation of Paradise is going much smoother this time. The reason being 3 of the 4 roads out of town are in the area that burned last month... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittamaru Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 In response - Drop the fuel air bomb where there are no houses Or where the houses are already gone. The idea is to burn off instantly (vaporize) the remaining fuel. @ Precise1 - the MOAB fuel air bomb would vaporize all the fuel... the root systems... eh, that is a good point. It wouldn't so much as blow them out as starve it out. No fuel, no fire. And a fuel air bomb is not EXPLOSIVE, it is IMPLOSIVE. If you have never seen one go off, youtube it - it's quite impressive. Now, a nuke is definately explosive XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Yes, isn't that the way things work?? I'm sure some of it has to do with last months practice also. It's good to hear that the people are safe. @ Precise1 - the MOAB fuel air bomb would vaporize all the fuel... the root systems... eh, that is a good point. It wouldn't so much as blow them out as starve it out. No fuel, no fire. Yes sir, but how long do you think the oxygen is removed? 10 seconds? 30 seconds? Certainly no more than that, nature abhors a vacuum!! When the oxygen returns, the fires reignite anywhere the temperature is high enough. Take a piece of wood, say a wooden match stick with the head cut off, put it in a vacuum and heat it to 500 degrees F. Now, let in normal atmosphere and watch it spontaneously combust... The same will happen with a stump thats burning with an internal temperature of 500 degrees. You set off the air fuel bomb, it shatters 1/2 the stump while HEATING things up. Within seconds the atmosphere has normalized and the stump begins blazing merrily away again. You are quite correct with your theory for the moment of the explosion, but reality and real world physics take over from there. Please, don't even mention nukes as an option... Thanks. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimGreg Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Why waste the bombs and make craters? B New 4x4 obsticles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittamaru Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Yes, isn't that the way things work?? I'm sure some of it has to do with last months practice also. It's good to hear that the people are safe. Yes sir, but how long do you think the oxygen is removed? 10 seconds? 30 seconds? Certainly no more than that, nature abhors a vacuum!! When the oxygen returns, the fires reignite anywhere the temperature is high enough. Take a piece of wood, say a wooden match stick with the head cut off, put it in a vacuum and heat it to 500 degrees F. Now, let in normal atmosphere and watch it spontaneously combust... The same will happen with a stump thats burning with an internal temperature of 500 degrees. You set off the air fuel bomb, it shatters 1/2 the stump while HEATING things up. Within seconds the atmosphere has normalized and the stump begins blazing merrily away again. You are quite correct with your theory for the moment of the explosion, but reality and real world physics take over from there. Please, don't even mention nukes as an option... Thanks. B I'm not talking the O2 as the fuel... I'm talking about burning off all of the wood and such. A MOAB reaches incredible temperatures. It may not vaporize all the fuel, but the most volatile among it will ignite and just... sorta poof. MOABs have turned metal in the, literally, energetic plasma with the heat output. You WILL get spontanious combustion from pure O2 rushes afterwards, but those burn out very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 I suggest you watch the following Which shows you time lapsed, effect and temperature... 1 hour from untouched to burning out. The real fire lasted 15 minutes, the heart as it was moving... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASuW0fTtJTY I know it's a canned commercial, but it gives an idea. Mother nature is far more powerful than our feeble bombs. Planes and helicopters can't even get in to deliver them!! What you suggest is fine for a Kansas grass fire when it starts, but not a raging mountain fire. I suggest you volunteer so you can comprehend first hand and then explain to the directors what they need to do. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittamaru Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 (edited) The problem is, the materials found in nature only burn so hot. Yes, there are a LOT of them, but there is no way in HELL that fire can come close to the heat generated by a MOAB or a tactical nuke. Case in point still stands - burn away the fuel first. It's the basis of using backfires and burn lines to stop the spread of fire. What i'm suggesting is do it on a MASSIVE scale due to the fact that, currently, wind is carrying the fire past small and even some medium sized burn lines. Trust me Precise... I'm no firefighter, but I am one hell of a pyromaniac and I love modern tech. I'm no idiot Edited July 11, 2008 by Kittamaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 the materials found in nature only burn so hot. Yes, there are a LOT of them, but there is no way in HELL that fire can come close to the heat generated by a MOAB or a tactical nuke. Ok, last attempt at reason. Yes, a MOAB is hotter and will temporarily snuff the fire. That will not stop fires from reoccurring. If anything, it will generate more at the blast radius due to the heat. Not to mention where a fire is... As the first video shows, it moves VERY quickly. Call in a strike and the bomb destroys nothing having to do with the current fire location. Also, large fires range for many miles on a front... Geez bud, what don't you get? This isn't a video game!! You have never seen a real wildfire or you would have a more realistic understanding. You mentioned nukes again.. I'm out of this discussion. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittamaru Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 (edited) *sighs* You're the one not getting it... When you cannot put out a fire via conventional means, you use alterior methods. This includes setting smaller fires to burn away areas of brush and flammable crap to prevent it's spread. Scale that operation up 200 fold. Instead of a 10 or 20 foot long fire line (what you make by back-burning flammable material in front of the spread of the fire), burn a 50 to 60 yard deep fire line. This way, the wind cannot as easily carry debris along. Older trees and less flammable material will not be flash fried in this. Just as in a propane explosion, there will be a sudden, very hot burst of energy. The most volatile of the items flash into flame and burn out just as quick. In a few seconds, the heat dissipates and the not as easily burned material is left. Now, if cinders and other such crap from the main fires land there, they don't spark a new fire. As for the main fires, there isn't much you can really do. From the temperatures in the fires, water and gel agents are burning away far too quickly to be effective. Maybe if they had a few dozen chinooks dropping thousands of gallons at the exact same time... but by the time they refill and come back, that same area would probably be on fire again. Final point on this topic - even if the moab doesn't permanently snuff out the fire, following up behind the MOAB with a few drops of fire retarding foam materials and bucket drops should snuff out that location at least temporarily. Anything to give those poor souls on the ground a chance is worth the effort in my honest opinion. Have you ever seen a backfire or, for that matter, the effect of convection on a fire? It spreads readily due to natural wind currents. A backfire is an attempt to stop this spread by creating a line of non flammble area that, hopefully, is large enough to stop the fire crossing. Create a big enough backfire line, and the fire WILL NOT cross it. EDIT - and if, by now, you haven't figured that I'm laughing every time I say nuke... yeah, a nuke would blow out the fire. And everything else in the state. and fallout would destroy the country... blah blah blah... jesus, do you think I'm ten? Edited July 11, 2008 by Kittamaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 When you cannot put out a fire via conventional means, you use alterior methods. This includes setting smaller fires to burn away areas of brush and flammable crap to prevent it's spread. That is done...but you cannot physically do that every year for the entire state of CA...I mean the piute fire has already burned 30+thousand acres and that doesnt include the Big Sur which is much bigger... When you cannot put out a fire via conventional means, you use alterior methods. This includes setting smaller fires to burn away areas of brush and flammable crap to prevent it's spread. Plus if you have never lived here you don't understand the winds in CA. I sure know I didn't coming from the east coast. The winds are intense this time of year and change directions very frequently so even if fire breaks are established its easy for the fires to jump almost a mile... Most towns enforce a Clearance rule where you have to clear all the brush within X radius of you're property to help save the house if a fire does happen and a lot of times this works Another of the big issues with these fires is terrain...it can only be managed by foot if that... I didnt understand how come they couldnt kill a fire here like they could on the east coast until I got here...the land, the wind, the lack of humidity, and how dry everything is really sets up for big fires and theres not a lot that can be done to prevent them but to make people aware and make them responsible for their actions but then you have arsonists and lightening (up north) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted July 11, 2008 Author Share Posted July 11, 2008 The winds did NOT materialize and Paradise remains! Yahoo! Evacuations still stand, but they have 50% containment. The fire has just about burned out it's fuel on the east side of the river without making it across. That is what containment means - stop the advance long enough to let it burn itself out. It should be safe enough for the firefighters to cross over to the burned side and start attacking the smoldering hot spots. All I'll say on the MOAB theory is that I fully support B's position. Even a MOMOAB wouldn't touch this. The fire encompasses dozens of square miles in some of the most rugged terrain in the US. This ain't Kansas.... Some of these canyons are 3000+ feet deep and in well in excess of 100% slope on the walls. Can not even access on foot. You can rappel (sp?) in, but have to hike out along the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted July 11, 2008 Author Share Posted July 11, 2008 That is done...but you cannot physically do that every year for the entire state of CA...I mean the piute fire has already burned 30+thousand acres and that doesnt include the Big Sur which is much bigger...Plus if you have never lived here you don't understand the winds in CA. I sure know I didn't coming from the east coast. The winds are intense this time of year and change directions very frequently so even if fire breaks are established its easy for the fires to jump almost a mile... Most towns enforce a Clearance rule where you have to clear all the brush within X radius of you're property to help save the house if a fire does happen and a lot of times this works Another of the big issues with these fires is terrain...it can only be managed by foot if that... I didnt understand how come they couldnt kill a fire here like they could on the east coast until I got here...the land, the wind, the lack of humidity, and how dry everything is really sets up for big fires and theres not a lot that can be done to prevent them but to make people aware and make them responsible for their actions but then you have arsonists and lightening (up north) Well said! The VAST majority of folks living up in the woods around here are fully aware of the risks and take extraordinary measures to maintain their "defensible space" around their homes so when the inevitable happens they have a fighting chance of surviving. My friends (the ones who drove out with flames on both sides of the road and near 0 visibility - just pointed car between walls of flame) are classic examples. Some of the stuff they have done: - No trees or brush within 50 yards of house. - Manually clear undergrowth to several hundred yards of house. - Steel roof - non- flammable siding - no wood or flammables (decks, fences, firewood) anywhere near house. - Immediately remove any dead trees. - No flammable landscaping (lots of dirt, rocks, water, short fire resistant grass) - Large pond with gasoline powered pump and industrial sized rain birds - Keep a couple go bags on hand at all times - Put their propane tank a LONG ways away from the house. Cost a few hundred more to run all the pipe, but if you've seen one go off.... - Cut a quad trail up to the next road and keep a couple funtional quads on hand at all times - this gives them 3 exit routes. Whenever fires threaten: - Fire up the pump and rainbird and SATURATE everything within 100 yards of house - Rake up every single stick or pine needle within 50 yards. - Shut off propane and move what few flammables they have in house out to the flammables shed. - Move all furniture away from walls and windows. And yes, they survived this one. Their neighbors (who didn't do nearly as much) lost their home. Guess who the media want to interview? It's almost comical watching the media go from house to house to find a bawling, lamenting, "OH GOD, WHY ME - SOMEBODY NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING" type of person. 99% are more like, "ehh, it happens. Glad I was prepared. Firefighters did a miraculous job." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 just ehard they found a body in one of the burnt out houses from the fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittamaru Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 I realized fires could jump hundreds of feet, wasn't aware it was miles. My plan for the MOAB was just to create a large fire line. Here's a question for you - if the firefighters COULD get in and attack the fire, would it make a difference? Or would the intense heat cause any direct attempt to fail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 I believe with unlimited water supply and head pressure they could better contain the fires but its just a matter of that not happening...I think most of it isnt fighting hte fire it's containing it and letting it burn out...I think thats about the only way you can really beat something like that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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