Engine Won't Turn

[Latinoffroad]

Hello everybody. I need some advice on my ordeal. I Have a '95 pathfinder with 150K miles on it, Bought it about a month ago, it has been running great until yesterday. In the morning I went to turn on the car, and it didn't turn on right away, this was unusual, once it turned on, it felt as if it was firing on 5 cyl, little shakes, loss of power, and when I stopped at red lights it smelled like raw fuel, smoke out of the tail pipe was blue. I kept driving it to work, it is close by my home, I'm only about 20 minutes away in S. Fla traffic. I did notice it was using a lot of fuel, my needle was going down quickly, and at times it turned off at intersections after a complete stop. My first thought was to replace the spark plugs, I thought maybe one of them is fouled, and that was a reason for the truck to feel as if driving on 5 cyl. Long story short, on my way back from work it used up all of my gas, I had a half tank in the morning, and before getting home I had to stop for more fuel. Everytime I stopped, the truck was rough to start, and when giving it gas, more blue smoke will come out. This morning I replaced the spark plugs, the old ones were not in bad shape, but they looked old. When I was done with that, I turned the truck on, it was a little rough to start, when it started if felt the same way as before the new plugs, I gave it some gas to see if maybe that would help, instead every time I gave it gas, more blue smoke came out. I turned it off, and went to check the wires, they were all fine, then I looked into the TB, and found it to be filthy, I had some cleaner, sprayed about half a can, and tried to star her again, this time the engine tried to turn, but wouldn't start, not turn at all, it made no attempt on turning, no noise, and all my lights in the dash would turn off as soon as I turned the key to start it, the only sound was a loud clank, like the starter trying to turn but insted is getting stuck, I bought and installed a new starter, tried again, same thing, it felt as if the engine was frozen, with the old starter, after trying to start, there would be smoke coming out of the bottom of the car, smells as if something electrical was burning, that's why I replaced it, with the new one, same thing, same smell, some smoke coming from the bottom, and also both + and- wires get very hot. I disconnected the battery, thought maybe the battery has a short, went and bought a new one, installed it, and same thing, one big "clunk" noise, wires get very hot, smells like burnt electrical stuff, and the engine does not turn for anything. I don't know what else to try, or where to look into next. Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[88pathoffroad]

I think you may have hydrolocked the engine by spraying half a can of cleaner into it. Hopefully you didn't bend any rods...try pulling the plugs and THEN cranking it.

[Kittamaru]

Uhm... you hydrolocked the engine mate... pray to whatever patron or matron deity you please that it didn't damage anything, pull the plugs, let it dry a day or two, then try it.

 

A quick rundown of hydrolock:

 

The pistons cannot compress liquids well, namely liquid fuel or water or oil or anything else that seeps into the piston chambers. Fuel that is injected is a very fine mist that vaporizes with incoming air - that is compressed and ignited. Your engine is unable to perform even a compression stroke at the moment and, likely, you've bent piston rods trying to force it to turn. A small bit of liquid is no real problem - it usually will be ejected on the exhaust stroke... but too much and yeah. Hydrolock. Let her dry for a few days...

 

As to the blue smoke and heavy use of fuel... uhm... damn. I can't really think of anything to cause that... Slick or Simon may know... maybe 88 could tell you once you take his advice and un-drown the beast

 

As to the blue smoke... check for oil use? Or maybe Coolant... I can't remember, but I think one of the two turns smoke blue. You may be experiencing a cracked header or cylinder head, which is letting coolant or oil into the combustion chambers.

 

A more knowledgeable forum goer will probably confirm / deny this.

[Latinoffroad]

Uhm... you hydrolocked the engine mate... pray to whatever patron or matron deity you please that it didn't damage anything, pull the plugs, let it dry a day or two, then try it.

 

A quick rundown of hydrolock:

 

The pistons cannot compress liquids well, namely liquid fuel or water or oil or anything else that seeps into the piston chambers. Fuel that is injected is a very fine mist that vaporizes with incoming air - that is compressed and ignited. Your engine is unable to perform even a compression stroke at the moment and, likely, you've bent piston rods trying to force it to turn. A small bit of liquid is no real problem - it usually will be ejected on the exhaust stroke... but too much and yeah. Hydrolock. Let her dry for a few days...

 

As to the blue smoke and heavy use of fuel... uhm... damn. I can't really think of anything to cause that... Slick or Simon may know... maybe 88 could tell you once you take his advice and un-drown the beast

 

As to the blue smoke... check for oil use? Or maybe Coolant... I can't remember, but I think one of the two turns smoke blue. You may be experiencing a cracked header or cylinder head, which is letting coolant or oil into the combustion chambers.

 

A more knowledgeable forum goer will probably confirm / deny this.

 

Thanks, the hydrolocking was a result of the spray I used to clean the TB, I hope I can deal with that today and fix it, however, what could cause the engine to run as if it only had 5 cyl from one day to the next, without any warning, and to still continue doing it, even after new plugs? Thanks for your help.

Edited June 1, 2008 by RedPath88
Merged Posts

[Simon]

Bad ECU? Bad wiring? Bad Distributor? Timing belt jumped a tooth or two?

[Kittamaru]

Simon, what about the blue smoke - a high concentration of coolant / oil could fskc with the combustion, right?

[GhostPath]

At a guess? Timing belt was overdue for changing, jumped time, and you slammed one or more valves, locking up the engine.

[Kittamaru]

Ghost, thing is - it worked until he hydrolocked it with a ton of TB Cleaner. Didn't work well, but it ran *shrugs*

[GhostPath]

Possibly... but it's more likely that putting the TB cleaner in and increasing the compression put more load on the belts and he popped it.

 

By all means, pull the spark plugs out and try to turn the engine over, but I suspect that it's still not going to rotate.

[Kittamaru]

Eh, good point.

[RowdoggNZ]

Blue smoke indicates burning oil i believe, sealing components in the engine could be going? / Gone. Eg. Piston rings?

[Latinoffroad]

Thanks for all the sugestions, I'm going to pull the plugs and try turning the engine first, and of course keep my fingers crossed for it to run. Thanks everyone, and thanks to NPORA for making this site possible.

Edited June 1, 2008 by Latinoffroad

[Latinoffroad]

By the way, is it normal for the + and - wires to get hot when making an attempt to start? Of course the engine does not turn, my guess is that the starter is trying to do it's thing, but of course the engine won't let it. I could understand the + wire getting hot, but isn't the stater grounded by the housing mounted against the motor? Why would the - wire get hot? Thanks again.

Edited June 1, 2008 by Latinoffroad

[Slick]

Thanks, the hydrolocking was a result of the spray I used to clean the TB, I hope I can deal with that today and fix it, however, what could cause the engine to run as if it only had 5 cyl from one day to the next, without any warning, and to still continue doing it, even after new plugs? Thanks for your help.

the 5 cylinder thing...... been there, done that, bad injector, or, bad plug wire....

hydrolock. definitely with half a can of cleaner ]

blue smoke. head gasket, bad piston, bad ring...... are you losing/using a lot of coolant?

Edited June 1, 2008 by Slick

[adamzan]

By the way, is it normal for the + and - wires to get hot when making an attempt to start? Of course the engine does not turn, my guess is that the starter is trying to do it's thing, but of course the engine won't let it. I could understand the + wire getting hot, but isn't the stater grounded by the housing mounted against the motor? Why would the - wire get hot? Thanks again.

I think it might be normal when the starter is drawing lots of current. There is an 88 pathfinder down the road from my friend that hadn't ran in 2 years so we tried to boost it and It turned over real slow and melted my booster cables

[Kittamaru]

Higher resistance = more heat and more current draw... so yes, that would be normal.

 

If it does that when it's able to turn freely... you have a MAJOR issue on your hands!

[RowdoggNZ]

I guess it would heat up pretty fast because the starter usually takes 1 - 3 clicks. but if your holding it in start clicking the motor, those things have a hell of a power drain.

[Latinoffroad]

the 5 cylinder thing...... been there, done that, bad injector, or, bad plug wire....

hydrolock. definitely with half a can of cleaner ]

blue smoke. head gasket, bad piston, bad ring...... are you losing/using a lot of coolant?

 

Actually, no I'm not using any coolant, level is full, temp gauge is normal. I think the culprit could be a wire. After removing the plugs I turned the engine, a lot of fluid came out, then it started fine, but of course the blue smoke was still there and the 5 cyl feeling still there. It was fine for about a minute, then I turned her off, went to check the wires, hoses, etc. everything seemed fine, I got back in the car and went to start her, then the same thing as with the hydrolock thing happened again, took off plugs did the song and dance again, on the last attempt to start her, the starter did the smoking thing, wires got hot, etc. I went to start her again after I did the song and dance, more fluid came out, put everything back together, plugs, wires, etc. Went to start the car and now the starter solenoid won't stop making a whinning noise, I turn the key in the ignition to the off position, but the starter solenoid keeps on going, I have the keys in my pocket, and the car wants to start, I'm walking away to disconnect the battery and the friggin car starts jumping, moving forward ( I had it in gear), I jumped back in the car, stepped on the clutch, put her in Neutral, the solenoid is still going, then I disconnect the battery everything is quiet, I wait a few minutes, connect the battery back and first I connect the - wire, then as soon as the + makes contact with the terminal, some sparks fly out, smoke out of the starter, smell, etc. I disconnect + wire again, wait a little longer, connect it back, everything seems normal, now I touched the wires they are cold, I got in the car, try to start her, makes one attempt to turn over, then all my dash lights turn off, as if the battery was dead, car won't turn, all it does is a "Tac" noise once, and that's it, dashboard lights go off right away. I thing the starter went (it's new, bought it yesterday). I guess at this point I need a young and an old priest to perform an exorcism on this car. I wanted to have the car running, even if it was smoking, and I wanted to pull the ignition wires, one at a time, to see if I could find a faulty one, however, if it is an injector would I be able to tell by pulling the wires? My guess is that if it's an injector the car will run the same and shut off every time I pull a wire, if it is a wire it will shut down when I pull one of the good wires, but will continue to run like crap when I pull the bad one. Does this make sense. Thanks again for all the information.

[Latinoffroad]

Higher resistance = more heat and more current draw... so yes, that would be normal.

 

If it does that when it's able to turn freely... you have a MAJOR issue on your hands!

Thanks for your reply. You're correct it was fine when it started, but now I think the starter went bad. (it's new). I have to wait until tomorrow to replace it and keep on trying.

[Latinoffroad]

Ghost, thing is - it worked until he hydrolocked it with a ton of TB Cleaner. Didn't work well, but it ran *shrugs*

Yes, and the blue smoke smells heavily like raw fuel, as a matter of fact on Friday as I was driving home, the smell was so strong that my clothes smelled as if I had spilled gas all over me, and I had my windows up, A/C on, etc.

[Latinoffroad]

I guess it would heat up pretty fast because the starter usually takes 1 - 3 clicks. but if your holding it in start clicking the motor, those things have a hell of a power drain.

Thank you for your reply. You're right, must be a lot of pull from the starter, the wires only get hot when the starter can't do it's thing, now I think the starter burnt out.. Thanks

[Simon]

I'm 99% sure you're hydrolocking with gas. Sounds to me like your ECU, or it's wiring is toast, and 1 of your injectors is stuck open.

[k9sar]

wow... that sounds like an interesting problem. If we go with the assumption that the hydrolock is fuel and it's injector failure, you need to identify which one it is. If you pull plugs and crank, you should be able to identify the cylinder with all the fuel in it. Pull the injector connector. put plugs back in and crank a tad. If it cranks (and even starts), the excessivce fuel is being told to go in by the ecu. If it locks again, it's a faulty injector and is stuck open. A leaky injector should throw a code... read the ECU. IF you determine it's a failed injector, post it. Lots of parts trucks around and I have a full set of spare injectors too. You can probably pick one up for much less than the hundred bucks or so new.

 

went back and reread your last long post... sounds like you fried the solenoid. There is constant 12V big thick wire to the starter. When you turn the key, you throw 12v on a trigger wire to the solenoid that does 2 things.. one, it throws an armature and engages the starter to the flywheel. Second, it makes the connection for the starter to use it's 12V (hig amp) wire. If the coil in the solenoid fried and left things in a connected state (which would be tough since the disengage is a mechanical spring), it would do what you describe. Advice.. short bursts to the starter. If it thunks or doesn't turn, stop.

Edited June 2, 2008 by k9sar

[Latinoffroad]

wow... that sounds like an interesting problem. If we go with the assumption that the hydrolock is fuel and it's injector failure, you need to identify which one it is. If you pull plugs and crank, you should be able to identify the cylinder with all the fuel in it. Pull the injector connector. put plugs back in and crank a tad. If it cranks (and even starts), the excessivce fuel is being told to go in by the ecu. If it locks again, it's a faulty injector and is stuck open. A leaky injector should throw a code... read the ECU. IF you determine it's a failed injector, post it. Lots of parts trucks around and I have a full set of spare injectors too. You can probably pick one up for much less than the hundred bucks or so new.

 

went back and reread your last long post... sounds like you fried the solenoid. There is constant 12V big thick wire to the starter. When you turn the key, you throw 12v on a trigger wire to the solenoid that does 2 things.. one, it throws an armature and engages the starter to the flywheel. Second, it makes the connection for the starter to use it's 12V (hig amp) wire. If the coil in the solenoid fried and left things in a connected state (which would be tough since the disengage is a mechanical spring), it would do what you describe. Advice.. short bursts to the starter. If it thunks or doesn't turn, stop.

This is the latest, I replaced the starter again, replaced the ignition wires, evrything seemed fine, tried to start the car, it wouldn't start right away, but the battery terminals were not hot, no smoke, or smell from the starter, went back in the car, tried a couple more times to start, finally it turned on, still smoking the white-light blue smoke, strong smell of fuel in the smoke itself. I am willing to bet it is an injector at this point. I will try to run the codes from the ECU, I guess the best way is to remove the front seat to access the box. I guess I have to keep on trying at this point, no sense in giving up. What's your take on replacing the injectors? Should I do all of them or just the faulty one? Thanks.

[k9sar]

you can read the computer if you slide the passenger seat all the way foreward and lean it to the dash, then recline the drivers seat so you can lay back and see it. A small mirror will help too. From your description of the smoke... white is condensation (can also be due to running rich or not firing properly). The blue is oil. Could be valve seal or rings etc. Once you get her to run steady, do a compression test on each cylinder and that may point to the culprit. There are diagnostic methods to determine if rings, etc at that point. As for what to replace... at a minimum, replace any that are bad. You'll probably have to remove your intake to get at them all but that's fairly easy. The number of injectors you replace may be driven by your availability of funds. I typically don't replace anything that isn't failing unless it's a real PITA to get to.