intheshadows Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Hello NPORA!! First post and hello from Hawaii! Sorry for the long post, I'm a thorough guy Vehicle in question is an 89 auto of unknown maintenance lineage with 107k miles. The main seal on the power steering pump exploded and made a huge mess, prompting me to do the timing belt. With the help of this forum, I mustered up the courage to replace the timing belt, tensioner, water pump, thermostat, and anything else rubber pretty much at the front of the engine. Most of the hoses/clamps appeared to be original 1989, and were either frozen solid or cracked on removal. Everything went relatively smoothly through the tear-down and re-install using a mix of OE parts and gates belts. After getting her buttoned up, I nervously cranked it and she runs like a champ. I had some smoke coming off the exhaust manifold that I believe was ATF that I spilled on there, that has burnt off after a few minutes, but other than that, she idles much quieter and smoother than before the surgery. The timing belt in there I replaced was in good shape, but it was a bit loose as were most of the belts. The crank seal was slightly leaking, and the cam seals were OK but I swapped them out anyway. Now, the issue is that when I took her around the block for a drive, she bogs down and stumbles at low RPMs (up to 2k I guess), and past that, she is OK. I only took her up to 35 mph or so around the block before shutting her down to have a look in case I missed anything. I did change and unplug/replug (I hope), a lot of things while inspecting the engine and I believe to have everything hooked up correctly. Below are a few other things to note about the vehicle and my ideas for getting her running correctly. 1. Before the PS pump blew, the engine was running fine (well, it DROVE normal before lets say) 2. Timing was not adjusted in any way. Distributor cap and plug/wire #1 were pulled when I confirmed TDC, and the plug was OK shape, and the wire seemed OK, but old. I cleaned the plug, reinstalled, and attached the wire, which doesnt appear to attach as tightly as before onto the plug. Maybe its my imagination. I removed the cam sprockets, but neither turned at all, and the old and new belts had a perfect 40/43 split on the teeth so I was fairly confident the timing was not affected by this. Timing marks at TDC were 99% lined up maybe a 1/4 tooth off on the RH sprocket. 3. I replaced the radiator as the fins on the old one literally crumbled into pieces when I removed it. I also replaced the ATF cooler lines and had them open and hanging into a bucket while I cranked the engine using the 27mm socket and cheater bar when confirming timing alignment. Because of this, I would say a noticeable amount of ATF had left the system through whatever was left in the radiator being removed, the volume in the lines, and some that had flowed out due to manual cranking. However, when I went to check the levels of the ATF, all indications were that the level was overfilled so I only added a little back into the system as I had read that too high a fluid level is bad. 4. I let the car warm up to operating temperature (I think), and drove it around for a while, but I have a suspicion that there are bubbles in my cooling system after replacing virtually everything related. I know there is that purge valve on the top of the engine. Is there a procedure for bleeding without burning myself and making a huge mess? How can you be sure there are bubbles or air cavities in there? Also, if there are bubbles, could the coolant or engine temp sensor be causing this stumbling as the ECU gets wonky? 5. The fuel filter in the engine bay on the pass side was old and nasty, and I had a spare OEM one. Before I did the PS pump and timing belt, I swapped the fuel filter and let her run in the driveway for a few minutes to make sure the fuel filter was OK. It ran and idled fine before the surgery. I know I'm second guessing myself, but I believe to have installed it the correct way with the flat portion (outlet) facing upwards. 6. I had a big hole in the intake plastic piece around where the distributor is, and I patched up the hole with some exhaust tape. The car ran fine with this giant hole in the intake, but its before the air filter, so I would guess that this shouldnt be an issue unless the tubing BEFORE is plugged up somewhere else. That would mean the crack would be the default route of air intake through the middle of the engine compartment I have not taken apart the intake tubing as of yet. Could the ATF being low cause my stumbling/bogging? How do I measure the ATF level if my dipstick always says high (even while cycling through gears sitting still with the engine running). It seems the dipstick I have in there is kind of damaged/kinked and the previous owner had pried the bastard off with a screwdriver (probably was stuck). I'm hoping I didnt do any serious damage to the trans. I havent pulled any codes yet from the ECU, but the power light acts normally when I start her up so I dont think the trans is holding any codes. At idle in park, she purrs like a kitten and I can rev to the sky and there is no missing/stumbling through any of the RPM range. She'll run about 1200 RPMS when cold, then settle in at around 800 RPMs when warm with the A/C off. I'm sure I dont have to tell you guys, but this truck is a blast to drive and I want her healthy again!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamzan Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I would first start by checking the timing with a timing light. I know you said the belt was on perfect. But @!*% happens. It should be 12 degrees on the TBI model. If it is far off you know where your problem is. If it is fine I would think maybe some of the connectors have corrosion and when you disturbed them maybe one is not making perfect contact. To check the ATF level, drive around until it is at operating temp, then cycle through each gear. Then check the dipstick. It should read somewhere in the hashed are on the HOT side. I don't think the atf level would make it bog unless it was way way low or over. To bleed the cooling system just run it with the rad cap off for a while. But do this from cold or you will have a big mess. I run mine about 10 minutes and it was fine. Make sure the heater is on full hot to circulate the coolant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 X2 on checking the timing first thing. 12 degrees is stock, but 15 is optimal for a little extra power and fuel economy. Too far advanced and you get predetonation and stumbling at low RPMs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peejay Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 And make sure your EGR valve isn't stuck open! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intheshadows Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Thanks guys, checking the timing is the first thing the service manual says. But I'm going to double check on the fluids again before I do anything else and clean and inspect some of the connectors I had undone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RF600 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 When you come to a stop it wants to die? Or is it while driving? I think the older Pathfinders are similar to the newer Pathfinders the way the engine is set up. If it does it when you are coming to a stop or at a stop it could be the IAC valve. There might be a controller for it also. There is a test in the service manual for checking that. I'm going off of a 95 Pathfinder. Mine was doing something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intheshadows Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 When you come to a stop it wants to die? Or is it while driving? I think the older Pathfinders are similar to the newer Pathfinders the way the engine is set up. If it does it when you are coming to a stop or at a stop it could be the IAC valve. There might be a controller for it also. There is a test in the service manual for checking that. I'm going off of a 95 Pathfinder. Mine was doing something similar. Yea, the engines are similar layout, just the intake systems are different for the most part from what I understand. But as for the coming to a stop, no, she idles rock solid and it doesnt feel like its dying. If I step on the pedal slowly, I can accelerate slowly with little to no bogging/hesitation and past 2k it drives normal. However, if I step on the pedal a bit harder, it seems like the engine chokes. If I cruise at maybe 20 MPH and hit the gas hard, it will stumble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 2k is MAF issue territory as well. A good seal between the throttle body and air filter housing is imperative, any leak there and the MAF will misread and cause issues - even though its before it. Try running the engine without the air cleaner housing and you'll see. You should also check the wiring/connector to the MAF for any corrosion, and maybe clean the sensor its self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intheshadows Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share Posted February 5, 2014 I had another car with a similar motor setup as this, and it behaved like this, but it ran pretty poorly at idle too. That one had crud on the MAF sensor, cleaned it off and it was good to go. Reason I didnt suspect the MAF causing the issue here is that it ran "fine" before, and it was sitting in the same spot before/after the Tbelt surgery. However, with how the rest of the engine looked, I'm sure the MAF and the entire intake system for that matter will need a thorough cleaning. Some projectile ATF may have gotten up there when the PS pump blew so I guess its not out of the realm of possibility (ATF got EVERYWHERE!!). I wanted to double-check I didnt muck anything up in the trans or timing before I started cleaning and replacing too many things and complicated the repair, but the MAF cleaning will be on the to-do list. I should have a few hours today or tomorrow to tear back into it, and I'll report back with progress. Thanks for the tips guys I'm already looking for a pathy/x for myself now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahardb0dy Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 the 89 engine is a throttle body, there is not a bleed screw on the top of the engine like the later VG30E, there should be a bleed screw in the upper radiator hose, that is how it was on my 87 hardbody. You can tighten the end of the coil wire or plug wire, but if you don't know how old they are you should replace them, either use OEM or NGK they are good wires, since you didn't alter anything as far as the timing possibly you have a vacuum line that is either off or cracked from being pushed around? The lines should all be replaced as well as they are old. When my car was tumbling it turned out to be the auto parts spark plug wires, put a set of OEM on it and the stumble disappeared, I know you said it was running good before you did all this work but it could be a coincidence that one of the wires took a crap at the same time. Since the engine has a TB, the MAF sensor is in the side of the TB so nothing you did should have any effect on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intheshadows Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) Ok just got done checking her over again. I started the car with the rad cap and the bleed screw on the top of the rad hose open and a few large bubbles came out. I'm sure there is a little left in there somewhere, but the heater blows hot like lava now. ATF is full and looks good as it was just about a little over 3/4 in the hot hashes, but I'll check that after I actually put a few miles on the trans. I looked over all the wires/connectors that I touched, and they all look OK to me visually. No corrosion or breaks in the lines. The vacuum lines dont have any visible cracks in them, but you guys are right, they really need to be replaced as they are 1989 vintage and are petrified. I only removed the #1 plug when doing the tbelt, but the wire was pretty stuck on there the first time I pulled on the boot. The wires say sumitomo on them, is that OEM? If it is, probably another 1989 original from its appearance. Anyway, I pulled it again, and reseated it, and it just doesnt click down all the way and is loose enough where I can wiggle it and hear the metal in the wire click against the plug, but its seated as downward as possible and is relatively secure. Im gonna pick up some new wires/plugs anyway I just didnt want to change too many variables when trying to nail down the problem. The stealership doesnt have ideal prices around here, but I'd rather go OEM on the wires and I want to check it sooner than later unless you guys have some auto parts stores winner brands to let me in on. Think this is my issue or timing? So next I'm going to try a new #1 wire. Then new #1 plug. Then timing check and adjustment with the distributor. I found an unfortunate issue with checking my timing. It seems the last guy that took her apart maybe disassembled the crank pulley harmonic balancer apparatus and misaligned the timing marks as they seem to be way way off to the point where my engine would not likely run if they were correct. Ugh, should have noticed this the first time but I honestly didnt pay attention to it. Guess I'll go find some pictures of a properly assembled HB/pulley and tear the pathy down again. Edited February 5, 2014 by intheshadows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Yeah Sumitomo is OEM. I'd replace them with NGK wires, and honestly since you're doing that you might as well replace all the plugs, cap, and rotor at the same time. And yeah, that crank pulley is known to be a big pain in the ass when it gets misaligned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intheshadows Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share Posted February 5, 2014 Yeah Sumitomo is OEM. I'd replace them with NGK wires, and honestly since you're doing that you might as well replace all the plugs, cap, and rotor at the same time. And yeah, that crank pulley is known to be a big pain in the ass when it gets misaligned. Yea just when I get her all put back together, no leaks and nice tension on all the belts.....grrr now I get to make another coolant mess. Found this pic of the crank pulley with the timing marks and keyway for alignment reference. Can you guys confirm for me that this is the correct orientation to put it back? It looks to be, as when I had the engine at TDC, it seemed the key was at about 1030 or 11 o clock from what I recall so it would put the indicator somewhere in the timing mark range. I assume I can just remove the six bolts holding the pulley on and rotate it such that the marks line up with the keyway like above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 That looks right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RF600 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 One thing you might look at is the cam sensor. The sensor is located in the distributor. I had a strange issue around 2500-3000 rpm. It ended up being the cam sensor. If everything else checks out check that. My rig is a 95. I think they did the same thing back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intheshadows Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 I tried the easy things just doing the plugs/wires, and it didnt change. I sprayed a little mist around the distributor cap and the wires, and no arcing. Connectors/wiring have been cleaned and inspected. Must be the timing. I keep getting distracted and forget to pull any codes. I'm going to do that before I try anything else. Think I'll find any specific codes relating to the timing? My misaligned crank pulley is going to set me back some time realigning it, and while I'm in there, I'm gonna have another check of the tooth count. Think I'm more likely off a tooth or just need to tweak the distributor a little? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intheshadows Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 So tore her apart again. Realigned the crank pulley harmonic balancer. Took a look at the timing belt, and it jumped a tooth. 40 split on the cam and 44 on the cam/crank. I was SURE I put it back correct, so I searched for why it jupmed. Seems the tensioner stud came loose! It allowed the belt to relax enough to skip a tooth I guess. Good thing it didnt bust anything in the process. I put the stud back with some loctite, the nut I had alreadyd loctited when I changed the belt last time but I didnt take out the stud and it didnt appear to have any locker on the threads. Is it supposed to? Anyway, this 89 runs like new again, except for that damn manifold ticking.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikestewart395 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 You sound like one of dim educated folk. Wurd you getch yore schoolin' from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Not the first time that's happened. Hood job getting her going again. Enjoy those manifold studs... I've always loctited the tensioner stud in the block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intheshadows Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 Not the first time that's happened. Hood job getting her going again. Enjoy those manifold studs... I've always loctited the tensioner stud in the block. Yea I had a new tensioner stud to go in, but the old one looked shiny and new (not so for the tensioner itself). I should have pulled it to double check anyway, as its a damn crucial part to the operation of the belt. When I pulled the stud out, there was no thread locker on it at all which seemed like a bad idea to me. Its now stuck in there tight, hopefully it will last for the remainder of this vehicles life. You sound like one of dim educated folk. Wurd you getch yore schoolin' from? Heh thanks man, that would make my mom proud I'm sure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikestewart395 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 . Heh thanks man, that would make my mom proud I'm sure Lol. Just kidding you. Just a helpful tip, add your truck info on your profile so when you are asking questions about something people will know what model you have, etc., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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