ejin4499 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) So the other day I had to shell out 70 bones to fill up the tank. even though I only drive the pathfinder on the weekends when I go gold prospecting this was still a major ouch for me. So I started researching alternative fuels looking for one I could make safely in my back yard. I stumbled upon this site. http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id36.html Ok so how do I run a fuel injected truck that is underpowered to begin with on a fuel that gives half the energy per liter. Obvious starting place is put more fuel in the cylinders per injection. Ok how do I do that? bigger injectors bigger pump and remap the ecu. Sounds expensive that's when I found these guys. http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/StoreFront The kit basicaly just lengthens the ground pulse to the injectors based on what the ecu is sending. Ok this takes care of the remap for the ecu and I can still run gas if I want to but will the pump and the injectors be able to keep up with the demand for more booze? Also has anyone made a bigger tank something in the realm of thirty gallons? Edited April 17, 2012 by ejin4499 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismothunder Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Forget this idea and get a Geo tracker if you want high mpg's. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejin4499 Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) Thank you for your kind words of wisdom but you must not have read the post. It's obvious that I'm not looking for more miles per gallon but fewer dollars per mile. Edited April 17, 2012 by ejin4499 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1994SEV6 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Thank you for your kind words of wisdom but you must not have read the post. It's obvious that I'm not looking for more miles per gallon but fewer dollars per mile. those...are the exact same thing. You want to spend less. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunya Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Neither one of you were useful, unsuprisingly. nismoblunder, you shoulda suggested a re-shelled, custom made awd Prius 94SEV6, if he is only gonna get say 1/2 the distance per gallon of homebrew over pump, but only cost 1/4 the cost per gallon to make over buying pump, that's still spending less though getting less mpg. Sorry as I have no useful info for the topic at hand, but hopefully someone will pop in to help shed some light for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejin4499 Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) no more miles per gallon means I am trying to get my gallon of gas to take me further. Very difficult or expensive with our trucks but fewer dollars per mile mean I am trying to use a cheaper gallon. By brewing my gallon of fuel at home using a solar powered still (solar heat not solar electricity) I can cut my cost of fuel to well below a dollar per gallon. So even if I only get half the MPG I am still cutting my fuel expenses in half. So your simplification is incorrect they are not the exact same thing. I am in fact giving up mpg to gain a better dollar per mile. Edited April 17, 2012 by ejin4499 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismothunder Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 You forget about all the common stuff in your post. Which shows me you havent researched it enough. Did you even read the complete article? You need to change the compression ratio and timing for e85. You can simply remap the ECU to provide more fuel but if you dont bump the cr and igniton along with running cold plugs you will kill your engine from pre-igniton. And yes, you can buy a fuel cell that is legal in CA. On a older, carburated car you can simply re-jet and bump timing. But it is not cost effective to convert a vg to e85. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejin4499 Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 I guess we will find out. you don't have to change compression ratio or or ignition when you switch to ethanol. The properties of the fuel allow you to use a much higher compression ratio (up to 19:1 for e100) and allow you to advance your timing. As far as pre-ignition is concerned if your running a colder cleaner fuel and you have pre-ignition problems then you have something else seriously wrong with your engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY1PATH Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) injector size calculation; e85 is 10:1 AFR and Gasoline (pure) is 14.7:1 so take your injector size and multiply by 1.47. 180cc x 1.47= 264.6 So, z31 turbo injectors or z32 non turbo injectors will deliver you enough fuel flow @ 270cc a min. That's your start! Your MAF still reads the same air and you o2 sensor reads a measurement on the lambada scale which is the same for almost all fuels that have burned completely and near their stioch ratio. So your 9.5:1 pure ethanol, 10:1 e85 14.5:1 pump gas and old 14.7:1 gasoline all show the same number on the lambada scale when they burn at their correct ratio. so it should work. what did he say? I said in theory all you have to do is increase you injector size and the rest should work like it should... But to fine tune it you may need to run something like Nistune and a wide band o2 sensor to dial in the ratio and fuel delivery. Don't forget all your fuel hoses and injectors need to be ethanol resistant or they will rot/fail. See my MPFI Swap thread for more details on injectors. Edited April 17, 2012 by MY1PATH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismothunder Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I guess we will find out. you don't have to change compression ratio or or ignition when you switch to ethanol. The properties of the fuel allow you to use a much higher compression ratio (up to 19:1 for e100) and allow you to advance your timing. As far as pre-ignition is concerned if your running a colder cleaner fuel and you have pre-ignition problems then you have something else seriously wrong with your engine. E85 burns at a colder temp then gas. So it doesnt take as hot of a heat sorce to cause combustion. Dont believe me , look it up. By all means convert your truck. I am by no means telling you not too, I am simply making sure you are 100 percent sure you want too switch. And you are sure of the problems you will have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejin4499 Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 E85 burns at a colder temp then gas. So it doesnt take as hot of a heat sorce to cause combustion. Dont believe me , look it up. By all means convert your truck. I am by no means telling you not too, I am simply making sure you are 100 percent sure you want too switch. And you are sure of the problems you will have. Ethanol auto combusts at 689 degrees F Gasoline auto combusts at 536 degrees F I looked it up you are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY1PATH Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I think Ethanol "burns cooler" because for one it is a much wetter mixture so the CYL does not keep as much heat after every intake event it final combustion temperature. AND two it's also cooler, not the point at which it combusts but the point after it has expelled all its energy. and what do you mean auto combusts? that sounds like detonation or diesel... gasoline and ethanol combust from and ingiton source (spark plug) and the resulting temperature is in the thousands of degrees and We do not wait for the desired temperature to blow our fuel up for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejin4499 Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 I think Ethanol "burns cooler" because for one it is a much wetter mixture so the CYL does not keep as much heat after every intake event it final combustion temperature. AND two it's also cooler, not the point at which it combusts but the point after it has expelled all its energy. and what do you mean auto combusts? that sounds like detonation or diesel... gasoline and ethanol combust from and ingiton source (spark plug) and the resulting temperature is in the thousands of degrees and We do not wait for the desired temperature to blow our fuel up for us. Just about everything will self ignite / detonate/ pre-ignition when its gotten to a specific temperature. Nismothunders idea was that because ethanol burns at a lower temp it takes a lower temp to ignite it and thus you should have cooler plugs or else they might cause issues with preignition. Ethanol does burn cooler and slower than gasoline but it takes a higher temp to ignite it. The reason some people are putting cooler plugs in there machines is because they are messing with boost and CR not because the the ignition temp of ethanol. I'm not sure what you mean when you say its a wetter mixture. When you distill your Ethanol you have to get it to e100/200 proof before mixing with gasoline. Otherwise the water can cause the gas and ethanol to separate. If you are running just ethanol you can have a little water in 10-15% and not have anything to bad. One report I read did a study and found that 1-2% water in the ethanol reduced some of the corrosive effects on metals. I didn't quite get that one so take it with a grain of salt. If your talking about the exhaust and how much water is in it after combustion that I'm not sure of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY1PATH Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 What I mean by wetter mixture is the almost 1.5 times as much (cold from the fuel tank) ethanol is injected than gasoline. 10:1 ratio vs 14.7:ratio believe it or not, this has an effect on your intake charge temperature, atomized fuel density and ultimately your pre-combustion cyl temperatures. this cools hot spots and combined it being higher octane (higher detonation temps) makes ethanol an extremely stable fuel for pushing vehicles to the limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismothunder Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Just about everything will self ignite / detonate/ pre-ignition when its gotten to a specific temperature. Nismothunders idea was that because ethanol burns at a lower temp it takes a lower temp to ignite it and thus you should have cooler plugs or else they might cause issues with preignition. Ethanol does burn cooler and slower than gasoline but it takes a higher temp to ignite it. The reason some people are putting cooler plugs in there machines is because they are messing with boost and CR not because the the ignition temp of ethanol. I see your point and that it is valid but I have seen E85 powered car pre ignite because of hot spots on the head/ plug. Some of these car were turbos and high comprression but far from all of them did. Keep going with this, because I'm following it and would like too know your final out come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY1PATH Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 well yeah any spark engine fuel can knock. The point is ethanol is more resistant to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejin4499 Posted April 21, 2012 Author Share Posted April 21, 2012 The plan right now is to get Injectors from a pick n pull cobble together a fuel rail for it. Then start splash mixing incrementally more e85 in the tank and see what happens at each stage. I'll keep a mileage and driving condition log. Then I'll take a look at tuning in for a particular mix that gets me to the price point I'm looking for that still allows me the range I need on a single fill up. Has anyone added a hardbody gas tank to these as a secondary tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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