Post timing belt change woes, advice needed. Fixed!

[pathfounder]

There's only one knock sensor, so it makes sense that you wouldn't get one of the other codes.

 

The codes specific to the cylinders can only be triggered by another fault, like a bad injector or something else that is cylinder-specific to the ECU. The KS will only ever trigger engine-wide codes like p0300.

[ferrariowner123]

There's only one knock sensor, so it makes sense that you wouldn't get one of the other codes.

 

The codes specific to the cylinders can only be triggered by another fault, like a bad injector or something else that is cylinder-specific to the ECU. The KS will only ever trigger engine-wide codes like p0300.

 

okay, well then without knowing a specific issue with a specific cylinder, how can find out which side is out of time?

do we just put everything at top dead center, count how many teeth there are and if it's good between both cams and crank, ill know im good?

 

Also do you know what the engine sounded way better when i installed the new plugs wires? could my previous problems be a combination of out of time and bad plug wires?

 

Also wanted to say thank you for all of the help you have given me, i appreciate your patience, needs to be more of you in the world!!

 

Thanks again, to everyone that helped!!!

 

-Kyle

[pathfounder]

okay, well then without knowing a specific issue with a specific cylinder, how can find out which side is out of time?

do we just put everything at top dead center, count how many teeth there are and if it's good between both cams and crank, ill know im good?

 

I wouldn't worry about which side is bad. My guess would be the cam that is driving the distributor is bad, and the other one might be off as well.

 

Anyways, get down to the timing belt, turn the crank around until the cam dots are upward, and the crank dot is around 5 o'clock. Then, use the tooth counts to figure out what has to go where.

 

You can put a dowel in the cyl #1 spark plug hole and watch it go up and then start to slow down and eventually go down. Then, you know you are near TDC.

 

As mentioned by someone else, you shouldn't turn the cams in full rotations with the crank not turning because the valves might touch the piston faces. There's a way to get away with it, but let's not go there.

[devonianwalk]

... do we just put everything at top dead center, count how many teeth there are and if it's good between both cams and crank, ill know im good?

 

 

That is exactly what I had to do when my timing got fskced. I turned each cam a tooth (or two) in order to align the timing marks on each side. I knew I had TDC by placing my finger loosely over the #1 cylinder and the air blew out. I kind of like Pathfounder's idea of using a dowel better.

 

*** on a side note, a mechanic buddy of mine removes the crank pulley by stuffing soft rope (not nylon) in to one of the cylinders to "stop" the piston from moving. I thought that was pretty brilliant!

[ferrariowner123]

So im sitting in the beast now, got the belt fixed, wha hey, it was a tooth off.

 

But not its not starting, mechanic friend thinks its because of one of the dust shield bolts is rubbing against the harmonic balancer, idk, in the process of fixing it now.

 

Send me good vibes, i need it!!!!

 

-Kyle

[pathfounder]

How was it a tooth off? Was the crank one tooth ahead of both cams, or behind, or was the right (your left when looking) one off from the left one? I'm just curious.

[ferrariowner123]

Well, i have a little bit of an update, it was a tooth off, i counted 39 teeth, from our first job, so it was between the cams, (to answer pathfounder's question);.

 

So we sorted it all out, got 40 teeth, but weird problem was there was no marking on the block for us to line the crank. so took out a spark plug, did the dowel trick, (which is super inaccurate in my opinion) but got to what "looked close" to 5 O'Clock on the crank gear, got the belt on put all back together, ran into a long process of trying to get it started.

 

Problem one: started with one of the bolts that hold the lower half of the timing gear dust shield on, was stripped, and rubbing against the harmonic balancer, preventing the engine from turning fast enough to start. So at this point were like "*my "vocabulary" is so small* IT" and we cut it off, one stubborn bolt!

 

Problem two: Turns out, one of the injectors was not plugged in. (probably been like that from the first attempted) Plugged that in, continued diagnosing.

 

Problem three: In the process of trying to identify problem one, we flooded the engine. So we took the fuse for the fuel pump out, cycled the engine, re-installed fuse, started right up. Sounded great. Let it warm up and burn that old fuel out.

 

So at this point, i breath a sigh of relief cause im done with this beast at this point.

 

Problem four: And this were im actually started to get incredibly frustrated. After getting the engine going, gave it some revs, made this bizarre sound. The only thing i can compare it to is my grandma's early model Subaru Legacy, but only when revved, at idle, you cant hear it all. We though it might have been one of the serpentine belts were on too tight, went through that process and no change. Mechanic buddy thinks it from having all of the coolant on the tensioners. Drove it this morning, still makes the sound. To be honest, i think its it part of timing system. because it sounds like its coming directly from the timing tensioner, or is it possible to have the timing belt rubbing on something?

 

Problem five: This is also an extreme annoyance. On my drive home, i noticed that the car has more power than it our initial fix, but has WAY less than before we even started. Like 50% less. Before this whole thing, it was torquy and pulled great, now its slow and i have to rev it higher than before to get through the gears. Example: i have a large hill to get up, for me to get home, use to be able to get it up it no problem in fourth, now i have to do it in third, foot to the floor and now it wont go past 3 grand (ish) on the revvs.

 

So im out of ideas, i went around to my local shops to see if i could an idea and the general agreement was its still just a little bit out of time of its a vacuum leak. So i tried to see if there was any lines i forgot to plug back in when i removed the intake manifold. I found nothing.

 

Now im gonna drive it, back as my daily, because it still runs, and gets from a to b. But im really hoping that someone can come through with a clear answer for me.

 

Don't really wanna borrow money from parents to get this fixed.

 

And as for my mechanic friend, im done with him, not really gonna talk to him anymore.

 

Appreciate any feedback, really need some help.

 

Thanks guys.

 

-Kyle

[adamzan]

Well you could still be off a tooth in the cam and crank count. Was the timing belt you took off a nissan one or an aftermarket? If it was changed before you owned it maybe they turned the distributor to compensate. I just went through this hassle on mine. (I tore it apart 4 times to check the teeth count!)

 

Get a timing light and check the timing, that will tell you right there. If it is CLOSE to the 15 degree mark you might get away with adjusting the dizzy. But don't do that till you check it out more.

 

Is the noise you hear when you rev it kind of a howling whirring noise? If so it is kind of normal for a new t-belt to make a bit of noise until it breaks in, that or you have it on there too tight.

[ferrariowner123]

Well you could still be off a tooth in the cam and crank count. Was the timing belt you took off a nissan one or an aftermarket? If it was changed before you owned it maybe they turned the distributor to compensate. I just went through this hassle on mine. (I tore it apart 4 times to check the teeth count!)

 

Get a timing light and check the timing, that will tell you right there. If it is CLOSE to the 15 degree mark you might get away with adjusting the dizzy. But don't do that till you check it out more.

 

Is the noise you hear when you rev it kind of a howling whirring noise? If so it is kind of normal for a new t-belt to make a bit of noise until it breaks in, that or you have it on there too tight.

 

The one that came off was not Nissan Branded, so what your saying would actually make sense.

 

Hoping i can rent a timing light from somewhere, and the timing marks are the harmonic balancer right? is zero the farthest left (when looking at the car from the front) and 15º is the farthest to the right?

 

And the noise is a whirring sound. and we did have to put the tensioner on a little bit more than the first time, but it was so we could get the belt on enough. In the step by step thread it told us to not let be able to flex past 90º when moving it.

 

and it didn't make a whirring sound the first time we put the belt on.

 

 

 

thanks for the help i hope i can get this fixed.

[adamzan]

15 degrees is in the middle of the 4 marks if you have a 4 mark pulley or the middle mark if you have the 5 mark pulley.

[ferrariowner123]

Okay, so next question, what is normal running degree? im assuming 15º?

 

And this video

explained alot about ignition to me? is this a good source to follow? seems very accurate.

 

And i think if i can get this going here in the next few weeks, im just gonna take up the A$$ as take it in, i just want my car back.

 

Also, how can I see the timing marks? There hidden between the serpentine belts. Is it okay to run the car without A/C or alternator belts? Only so I can see the ignition timing marks?

 

And hopefully I have some more helpful info. When I'm driving, especially at speeds, its very gitterey and tuggy, its feels like a flat tire almost, but I know it's not

Also my gear changes are nowhere near as smooth, but I think that'd due to the power difference. Also why I rec higher for each change.

 

So does that hint at more ignition or timing problem?

 

Also is there anyway to know stock dizzy position from some kind of marking on the cap or mount?

 

Thanks again sorry for beating the dead on horse on this, just want this done!

 

-Kyle

Edited April 24, 2012 by ferrariowner123

[ferrariowner123]

Im bumping this back up, hopefully i can get some additional answers.

[devonianwalk]

Have you tried a timing light yet? Rent one from a local "big box" auto parts store. Attach the power cable to the battery and the lead to the #1 Spark plug wire. Shoot the strobe light at Harmonic balancer and see if you are at 15 degrees. That is the only thing that I can think of other than your timing belt is still off. Like Adamzan mentioned earlier, you may be okay with the tooth count from cam to cam but, off of the tooth count from cam to crank shaft. Also, you mentioned that the crank mark was difficult to determine ... this could be a cause for the lack of power/off time as well.

 

Look, I have been into my timing belt a couple of times. I wish I was there to put my hand on your engine to see what you seem to be missing.

[ferrariowner123]

Have you tried a timing light yet? Rent one from a local "big box" auto parts store. Attach the power cable to the battery and the lead to the #1 Spark plug wire. Shoot the strobe light at Harmonic balancer and see if you are at 15 degrees. That is the only thing that I can think of other than your timing belt is still off. Like Adamzan mentioned earlier, you may be okay with the tooth count from cam to cam but, off of the tooth count from cam to crank shaft. Also, you mentioned that the crank mark was difficult to determine ... this could be a cause for the lack of power/off time as well.

 

Look, I have been into my timing belt a couple of times. I wish I was there to put my hand on your engine to see what you seem to be missing.

 

Alright, just ordered a timing light, but when checking for the timing, im obviously pointing it down about the harmonic balancer to see where the pointer on the dust shield and where that lies when idling will determine my at idle ignition timing. Correct? and stock ignition timing is 15º? or the middle plug like adam said?

 

Sorry for the million question, i just want to cover all my bases before i tackle this again.

 

-Kyle

[devonianwalk]

You are correct. You should go ahead and pick up a Haynes automotive manual on the Pathfinder. Alot of questions can be answered there.

 

Plus, a "million" questions will eventually fix your ride!

[ferrariowner123]

You are correct. You should go ahead and pick up a Haynes automotive manual on the Pathfinder. Alot of questions can be answered there.

 

Plus, a "million" questions will eventually fix your ride!

 

alright, I'll do that, thanks for the help. Like I said, for all the questions, just wanted to have everything covered.

 

-kyle

[ferrariowner123]

So I finally got a timing light, tested it out, and the markers on the pully and they are no where near the pointer, so it's a tooth off, as I had suspected.

 

Best part was, the balancer has been taken off so many times that, what do you know, I stripped one of the bolts holding them on, so I'm just gonna take it in, let it be there problem.

[pathfounder]

Did you do all of the rev up malarkey that you need to do in order to trigger the engine to run at 15 degrees of timing? It's something along the lines of over 3000 rpm for a minute, back down, or something. It's in the FSM. If you didn't do this, you probably measured nothing.

 

Not sure why it would still be a tooth off if you followed our instructions. The cams and crank ALL need to follow the tooth count rule.

[devonianwalk]

Not sure why it would still be a tooth off if you followed our instructions. The cams and crank ALL need to follow the tooth count rule.

 

My concern is that Ferrariowner mentioned that he had a hard time setting the 5 o'clock timing mark on the crank shaft. The tooth count is probably correct from cam to cam and cam to crank (wait, did I just type that right?). However, the crank is probably off a tooth or two from the cams.

[pathfounder]

I don't get it. If the timing belt has the right number of teeth between the dots on the cams, and the right number of teeth between the driver side cam dot and the crank dot, then nothing else matters, the timing belt is on properly.

[ferrariowner123]

I don't get it. If the timing belt has the right number of teeth between the dots on the cams, and the right number of teeth between the driver side cam dot and the crank dot, then nothing else matters, the timing belt is on properly.

 

Well I couldn't check the number of teeth between the crank and the right cam, because I stripped the balancer, so I couldn't get the bottom dust shield off, I still think it's off down there. So I don't know what to do. It's an $80 part (the balncer) on rock auto, and if I take it to the shop, there gonna want to replace it, I just know it, so I'm stuck, we tried to tap out the hole to get a different pin, but I don't think there was enough metal to get the balancer off. So should I order a new balancer, and rent a pulley puller? I'm told those pullers will rip the rubber rings off the balancer, that true?

 

I'm gonna go around and get some quotes today, and see how much some shops want.

 

Thanks for everyone's patience, and willingness to help.

 

-Kyle

[ferrariowner123]

Did you do all of the rev up malarkey that you need to do in order to trigger the engine to run at 15 degrees of timing? It's something along the lines of over 3000 rpm for a minute, back down, or something. It's in the FSM. If you didn't do this, you probably measured nothing.

 

Not sure why it would still be a tooth off if you followed our instructions. The cams and crank ALL need to follow the tooth count rule.

 

and I did not do that, I was under the impression that resting idle determined it, ill try it again.

[pathfounder]

A puller around the outside will trash the balancer almost for sure.

 

If you are willing to replace the balancer, pull out all the stops on this project and cut it off with an angle grinder, or use the puller on the outside part, let it come off, and then use the puller on the inner part. This will probably be cheaper than paying a shop their labour rate for a task like this.

[adamzan]

What do you mean you stripped the balancer? You mean the holes that you use to bolt the puller onto? Drill them out a little and tap them to some convenient size and bolt the puller back on.

[ferrariowner123]

What do you mean you stripped the balancer? You mean the holes that you use to bolt the puller onto? Drill them out a little and tap them to some convenient size and bolt the puller back on.

 

Well I stripped the holes that are used to pull the balancer off, stock holes are a 6 X 1mm and I tapped it out to a 7 X 1mm and went bought a 7 X 1mm bolt, but it wasn't long enough, and time was running short, so we threw in the towel, so I agree with pathfounder, gonna go all out to get the old one off. Then take it in.

 

And does anyone have any objections to getting a used balancer? I'm gonna go to a junk yard and find a good one.

 

Thanks

 

-Kyle