skulptr Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 (edited) well i'm sick of my pathy burning oil. my son was born yesterday, and on our way home from the hospital the pathy gave out, got stranded on the side of the freeway in pitch black. found out she was 2.5 quarts of oil short. she's burning more than i can afford to put in it. so i have none close enough pateince for the search button right now. i have a vg33 sitting on a stand with 86xxx miles and low compression in cylinder 1, as far as i know. the lady never changed the oil in it, which is why i have it now. $20 engine is a $20 engine. i need to get this engine running and in the pathy asap on as little money as possible, since i have none. can anyone rattle off what i need to get this taken care of. its supposed to be snowing by the end of the week. Edited November 16, 2010 by skulptr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewebster Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 My recent experience seems to indicate that rebuilding an engine costs more than just buying a rebuilt engine, especially if you try to "do it right." How low is low? If it's just a little lower than the other cylinders then maybe you can live with it. Otherwise I guess it could be head gasket or piston rings (or pistons). Head gasket is pretty easy to change out, doing the rings is a lot of work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewebster Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 Maybe you should try just replacing the valve stem seals in your current engine... could be the issue. Do you get smoke on initial startup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skulptr Posted November 16, 2010 Author Share Posted November 16, 2010 (edited) it smokes a little at start, and under heavy throttle. its also been having alot of issues starting the past few months. would start really hard in the morning, idling up to 1200 right away then dropping to 2xx and bouncing around for a couple seconds, feeling like its running on 3-4 cylinders, then it would be fine. when i get to work, it would sit for 2 hours til break, it would start just fine while i move it to a closer spot. by lunch, try to start it and it dies instantly and will continue to unless i hold the throttle open and rev it up. and it does seem to have a constant tick. volume comes and goes, but never leaves. Edited November 16, 2010 by skulptr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skulptr Posted November 16, 2010 Author Share Posted November 16, 2010 i guess the point in this isnt to do a full rebuild, but to get it running and not burning oil. i'm also up for emissions on december 29th, and my CEL has been on for a year now, knock sensor and o2 codes last time i checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY1PATH Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 yes, really, check some things, save some time and money. Valve seals are literally a few bucks for all 12. The most expensive part will be getting a spring compressor made like the one pictured in the other thread. pull your crankcase hoses off for a while and see if that stops it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleurys Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 you want cheap, you got cheap... seriously I feel you pain.. I have seen this thing work miracles... it is worth every penny and might save you an engine rebuilt. IT HAS WORKED FOR ME AND DID SAVE ME AN ENGINE REBUILT WITH A KNOCKING AND OIL CONSUMPTION ISSUE with a GM. I'm writing in bold so that before people start bashing, they know that I do talk from experience on this one... http://www.restoreusa.com/restorer.html this is no bull really... do it, you won't regret it. In my case, the engine stopped making rocker noise and stop burning oil within 24 hours of me pouring the stuff in.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skulptr Posted November 16, 2010 Author Share Posted November 16, 2010 (edited) i have tried that stuff once, and my experience was opposite. i used it in my old honda that had an oil leak, and it doubled the leak overnight. i saw your post about the trans restore. i just don't have the room to chance it without a backup option. i don't doubt you one bit, you haven't done me wrong (my stickies lol). i'm just, well a worry wort, since my son is about 42 hours old right now. i'm kinda hitting bumps i never knew existed. so which would be my better bet? the engine in my truck with vavle stem seals, or the engine thats been sitting on the stand for 6 months waiting and needs rings at least. the rings and seals cost the same. i would have to change the knock sensor out if i fix whats already in the truck, but i have no reason to doubt the one on the stand has a good sensor, the engine is from a 2000 model, final r50 before the facelift Edited November 16, 2010 by skulptr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj big shoe Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 i have a vg33 sitting on a stand with 86xxx miles and low compression in cylinder 1, as far as i know. the lady never changed the oil in itHave you taken a look under the valve cover yet? Could it be some gunk around one of the valve seats or between the rocker arm and stem preventing it from closing properly? Badly neglected oil is nasty stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skulptr Posted November 16, 2010 Author Share Posted November 16, 2010 yeah the camshaft is pulled off and everything, the guy i bought it from got that far, then changed his mind and got a JY engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewebster Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 Well, I paid a lot more for rings than stem seals, but doing the seals is a heck of a lot easier, though you'll have to make a spring compressor that fits. Low compression could be a valve problem too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.510 Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 'Old' motor: If it smokes under load after it's warmed up it is more than just valve seals. Also, generally if the valve seals are toast they probably got that way because the valve guides are worn out. The further you open the throttle the less it should smoke if it's valve seals. As you open the throttle manifold vacuum drops. It is manifold vacuum that sucks oil past bad valve seals. Once this starts to happen the guides are history in short order as the oil burns onto the valve stems and the resulting baked-on carbon wears the guides very rapidly. Smoke only at startup, idle, and on deceleration is generally valve seals. Lower load/higher vacuum = more smoke. More smoke with more throttle is generally rings. Higher load/lower vacuum = more smoke. Many engines have a combination of both. On your 'new' motor: You have to pull the heads to do rings so you're into a full engine gasket set, T-belt, etc. Crank has to come out too so you can clean the block after honing the bores. My VG experience says if it's got low compression on one hole caused by rings it has a broken ring, the bore is hammered dog poop, and the block will have to be bored. This is NOT a common failure on N/A VGs. More likely it has a burnt valve. You might be able to put your 'old' heads on the 'new' bottom end if it is a valve problem on the 'new' motor and a rings issue with the 'old' one. I think this is most likely from what you described. If you need a stock motor on a budget a good used one is the best value hands-down. Unless you can combine two by only buying head gaskets and a timing belt that is. If the 'new' motor is still mostly together don't pull the heads yet! Put it back together and do a dry compression test followed by a wet one. This will tell you with certainty if it's a valve issue. If the compression goes up way more on the bad hole when oil is added to the cylinder than the others the problem is either a broken ring or piston. If the heads are off pull the rockers so all the valve are closed and spray carb cleaner into the ports one by one and see if you get a bunch more leakage on one valve. Also, look for obvious cylinder wall damage in all six bores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismothunder Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 you want cheap, you got cheap... seriously I feel you pain.. I have seen this thing work miracles... it is worth every penny and might save you an engine rebuilt. IT HAS WORKED FOR ME AND DID SAVE ME AN ENGINE REBUILT WITH A KNOCKING AND OIL CONSUMPTION ISSUE with a GM. I'm writing in bold so that before people start bashing, they know that I do talk from experience on this one... http://www.restoreusa.com/restorer.html this is no bull really... do it, you won't regret it. In my case, the engine stopped making rocker noise and stop burning oil within 24 hours of me pouring the stuff in.. It works for a while,I tryed it in my oil sucking saturn before replacing the head.Get a 8 cylinder can and dump it in.It'll raise compression a little,although it should be known that this product catains lead in it. Sounds like valve guides to me,but very worn ones,you may have even sunk a vavle in your engine which would explane the contanst tick that you destribbed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skulptr Posted November 17, 2010 Author Share Posted November 17, 2010 so used motors around here are looking to be 500-750, which is about 500-750 outside my budget. the newer motor had no timing belt, and its way out of alignment from tdc.. testing compression may be a bigger pita than it should. not to mention the guy i got it from left the plug holes open, so there's no tellin whats fell in. and rings i can actually get cheaper than i can a full set of stem seals, and by the sounds of it guides as well. i'm just hoping i didnt bite off more than i can chew. snow is on the forecast for tonight and the next 4 days. i was hoping to be playing in it, not suffering through it. to do valve stem seals and guides would include doing what? and doing rings would require almost complete disassembly of the entire engine. under the valve covers is pretty gunked up, something i'd expect from a 190+ engine, not a -100 engine. course the lady drove it into the ground, then sold it off for $100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY1PATH Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 (edited) More smoke with more throttle is generally rings. Higher load/lower vacuum = more smoke. Also more blow by gasses which means more oil in your PCV lines. and hey again, contributes to the smoke factor. Maybe its not such a dramatic effect with our 9:1 VG's But other Higher compression engine can get this pretty bad tho... Edited November 17, 2010 by MY1PATH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewebster Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 I don't really think you can do either job properly for no money and no time. It just isn't really the way it works. If you don't want to put work in you should really keep using your engine that is running already. You can get a set of stem seals on rockauto for $13 by the way, though I'd probably splurge on the $20 expensive felpro set. But you could spend a fair amount of time dinking about trying to compress the valve springs if you aren't experienced in fabricating a suitable device... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skulptr Posted November 17, 2010 Author Share Posted November 17, 2010 i have gotten all my prices from rock auto, and judging by their pictures and descriptions, there's only 1 FULL set of seals, the others are exhaust/intake seal sets. what would be involved in doing the valve seals, since it seems thats the way i'm going to get forced to go. i just downloaded the fsm in the r50 section, gonna look it over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewebster Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 You have a 97 right? I'd get the Felpro SS72629. It's $21.89 and has the 6 intake and 6 exhaust seals you need... On a WD21 the steps are something like this: -drain radiator -remove air filter -remove spark plug wires -disconnect all electrical and fluid connections to the upper intake plenum -remove upper intake plenum (supposed to replace gasket for this) -remove valve covers (could need new gaskets too) -remove rocker arm shafts with arms -remove valve lifters with guides -determine how you will prevent valves from falling into combustion chambers, either by removing the plugs and using compressed air to keep the valves shut, or by systematically rotating the engine around so that the cylinder you are working on it at TDC so the valve cannot fall down very far -get valve spring compressor that will work -compress valve springs and remove keepers, then remove springs -use pliers or tool to remove old seals -using plastic tubes (provided with seal kits) over the valves, install new seals with appropriate tool (I used a socket), taking care that they go on straight and all the way down (specs in FSM) -reverse above steps to reassemble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.510 Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 (edited) Ok, so if the 'new' motor is far apart pull the heads off of it ASAP. Do the carb cleaner in the ports thing and see if it's got a burnt or bent valve. I'll keep my fingers crossed that it does and the bottom end is OK. It sounds like your 'old' motor oil starved and VGs never live long after even a minor case of this. I tell people that if they ever see the oil pressure light when the motor is above idle to plan on replacing the engine in the near future. I honestly doubt the bottom end of your 'old' motor is going to live 100 miles if it tightened up like it sounds like it did. It may already have a spun bearing or three. The one thing VG engines have zero tolerance for is oil starvation. Ask the Z31 guys, they blow up motors autocrossing all the time with the oil pressure light never even coming on. Are you talking about doing valve seals on your 'old' motor? You may want to do that to your 'old' heads if you put them on the 'new' bottom end but they aren't going to do anything to help if it oil starved. I just had an idea: If we can determine that the bottom end of the 'new' motor is OK I will give you a set of good, ready-to-run VG33 heads for it. 80-some thousand miles on them I think? That way you don't have to mess with your 'old' motor at all, other than trying to make it live a little while to idle around town. (And I do mean idle! If you need to get to work or whatever don't let it see more than 2k rpm!)On that front, change the oil and filter and put one quart of Hilton's Hyperlube in it in place of one quart of oil. It will not hurt anything, won't screw up the seals, and just *might* make it live a little while longer. Don't throw the oil filter away! Drain it thoroughly and put it in a ziplock bag. We should cut it apart to check for bearing material if the motor doesn't explode right away. An oil filter media inspection will tell the whole story. I wish you were closer to Seattle! Edited November 17, 2010 by Mr.510 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skulptr Posted November 17, 2010 Author Share Posted November 17, 2010 i will work on getting the heads to the newer motor off. i guess by what your sayin that i have my fingers crossed for the bottom of that one to be good. here's hopin i actually have a clue as to how to identify the difference, i'm tool savy, not brain savy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skulptr Posted November 18, 2010 Author Share Posted November 18, 2010 well i pulled the heads off the engine on the stand. they are packed with black ........ all over, i had to get a flat head out and dig my way into the head bolts just to be able to use them. i also found out i am missing the left lifters. but here's pictures of what i have. i will take the camera out and get better pictures once its charged. its cold as hell right now, and we're in a winter storm warning right now, i don't want to stay out there much right now. passenger side, having cylinder 1 up flush like that i hope is what TDC means, cause she didnt come with a t belt and quite a bit of other stuff. drivers side cylinder 1 closer, this is supposed to be the bad cylinder close up of valves from cylinder 1 drivers head passenger head something i noticed right off the bat once i had the heads off is the valves over cylinder 1 are a different color and have a bunch of crust built up around the (intake?) valve. i will throw out that this is the furthest i have ever been into an engine, so i am being as open as i can be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuong Nguyen Posted November 18, 2010 Share Posted November 18, 2010 I think I'm losing a lot of my memory at a fast rate but it looks like #1 cylinder is not burning fuel to cause that build up of carbon otherwise it would be like the others. I'm guessing leaky injector, no spark, little to no compression (bad rings).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skulptr Posted November 18, 2010 Author Share Posted November 18, 2010 it is supposed to have low comp on cylinder 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewebster Posted November 18, 2010 Share Posted November 18, 2010 Yeah clearly the one cylinder has a different level of badness, but in general you would expect carbon deposits in a used engine, so I wouldn't get too worked up about there being "black everywhere." I don't know what your plan is now. Are you looking for input from us based on the photos? It seems like you would likely need to do some work on the #1 valves at least, because they likely won't close properly like that. You should also be figuring out what is going on with the #1 piston and rings. Can you detect a large ridge at the top of the #1 cylinder? If there is little or no ridge you may be able to pull the piston out and put it back without ring damage (the putting it back being more scary if you replace the piston/rings). Otherwise you'd need to get it reamed or bored (you could probably ream it yourself, but the tool will be like $100 or something, maybe less). With the piston out you can measure the ring side clearance (how much larger the groove in the piston is than it should be), see if any are stuck or broken, take them off and put them in the cylinder to measure the end gap etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj big shoe Posted November 19, 2010 Share Posted November 19, 2010 i also found out i am missing the left lifters.I have an old set of lifters and stock valve springs if it ends up you need them to get you by. I bought new ones when I did my heads so they're just sitting around doing nothing. I've resurfaced them with 1000 grit sandpaper and I'm sure they're still good. It'll take a while for them to get to you from FL, but PM me if you need them and we can settle up sometime when you're more able to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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