Gun Control In The Usa

[Dark94XE]

I'm just speaking for myself, but I don't live in fear, and I don't know anyone who lives in fear. Have you ever been to the US? What do you base your claim that Americans live in fear on? And as for weapons to kill people in any real quantity, nothing beats a shotgun. These idiots who go through the trouble of getting an illegal handgun or assault rifle watch too many movies. You don't have to aim a shotgun and you can buy one at WalMart. I REALLY don't want to sound like a psychopath, so please don't get that impression of me. And I also do not want to sound abrasive of antagonistic. I understand and appreciate your point of view.

[94extreme]

As far as illegal guns go.. how many do you think are out there? I would surmise that there is around one illegal weapon for every legal one. Does that sound about right?

 

 

i don't think so. most guns are legal. it's actually kind of hard to get a gun illegally here. any street transaction is techinically legal becuase it is between two private parties. if one buys a gun at any show or shop then they'll do at least a quick background check. there is also a waiting period with handguns.

[94extreme]

I'm just speaking for myself, but I don't live in fear, and I don't know anyone who lives in fear. Have you ever been to the US? What do you base your claim that Americans live in fear on?

 

americans live in fear! that's my opinionn too. i base it on living here and living other places. there is just this underlaying thing about guns here that is completely eliminated in the countries that have strict gun controls. it's just one of the american quirks or what makes this place unique. there are by far more gun shooting here then half the globe at least. if you ever lcompare some stats, america is still "the wild wild west "

[94extreme]

We need population control anyway.

 

 

haha

[88pathoffroad]

I forgot to add, I've never lived in fear that anyone would use a gun on me either.

 

What's this? A refutation?

[94extreme]

also found this to be pretty interesting...are guns really the problem?

 

non-firearm homicides

firearm related homicide

 

 

oh yes and you are proving v6 point with these stats. in the non gun stats USA sits about the middle just below Poland. on the second set of stats Poland is way, way below. Poland has pretty strict gun control. 1-7 in that same poll are there because all those numbers come from assault type weapon mass killings as in "war." in all those places there are sandanista types fighting in the bush. now, let's skip to 18-30 as those are below 1/100k. all those countries have very tough gun laws and for the most part there just aren't any guns. so, yeah free-for-all with guns has tough consequences.

[94extreme]

What's this? A refutation?

 

seems to be. over all this country has gun paranoia though. like i said, that's imho.

[94extreme]

(why do I need to spend $15 a year to register my canoe of all things???).

 

sin tax baby.. the underlaying puritanism of america rears it's ugly head. lol

 

I think an acceptible form of gun control would not be to take away all the guns, but to have a much more thorough evaluation period for someone attempting to purchase one. And to have to pass a safety course in order to purchase one. One thing I do not want to see are firearms registrations - that is just another way to take money away from us that we don't need to put up with.

 

that's basically how it works in the countries that have tough gun conrol. europe was swept clean of guns after ww2.

[dkpath96]

Here's a great link:

 

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f...aw/beararms.htm

 

Basically, is the 2nd Amendment outdated, does it apply only to militias, or does it apply to individuals? That's open to debate in the article above.

 

And here's another one, that proposes a new amendment:

 

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_2nd.html

 

Anyhow, I drove through Virginia a month ago, and stopped at a Wendy's for lunch. This older fellow walked in, stood in line, and ordered lunch too - all while openly wearing a sidearm. Not a single person visibly reacted or flinched or gave funny looks to the man - I was watching for any reactions in the crowd. I've never seen this before, so I was asking myself how I felt about this. To be honest, I cannot yet answer that. Did I feel safer? No. Did I feel endangered? No. How would anyone else feel about this happening at their local burger joint?

 

The thing is, no one knows who the next psycho will be or where they will come from, or when they will strike again. For all anyone knows, that man could have been him... or could have been the deterrent to a shooting.

 

There is no way guns will ever be removed from American society. Knowing this, and reflecting on what I just typed, I'd rather have a dude with an open sidearm sitting by me than no one at all to defend the innocent. Yes, it sounds like the Wild West, but why take guns from law-abiding citizens when everyone knows that criminals or psychos will find a way to obtain one no matter what, even if guns were banned.

Edited July 23, 2007 by dkpath96

[94extreme]

Anyhow, I drove through Virginia a month ago, and stopped at a Wendy's for lunch. This older fellow walked in, stood in line, and ordered lunch too - all while openly wearing a sidearm. Not a single person visibly reacted or flinched or gave funny looks to the man - I was watching for any reactions in the crowd. I've never seen this before, so I was asking myself how I felt about this. To be honest, I cannot yet answer that. Did I feel safer? No. Did I feel endangered? No. How would anyone else feel about this happening at their local burger joint?

 

 

not particularly comfortable? when i saw a guy on a horse in the middle of the woods (outside of hunting season) with a hand cannon strapped to his thigh and somewhat funky look on his face, the first thing i thought of was that they guy was disturbed. there was absolutely no reason for him to have a gun and absolutely no reason to show it. NO REASON!

[88pathoffroad]

Why can't a guy go ride his horse in the woods with a gun? Something wrong with that? Maybe he was expecting cougars or wanted to do some target practice outside a shooting range, etc.

[dagwoodzz]

Would the same government who enforces gun control also be the same government that secure the borders? No thanks, I'd rather have guns.

[wannabe]

You're too busy to find out for yourself?

 

* I am a shooter and agree that limits need to be imposed for safety of the people.

 

Gun control is Australia is also a "sore" point. Yes Australia has had some major mass shootings and the laws have been tightened up. To buy a gun in Australia can be difficult.

 

To gain a shooter licence..

 

* Must have a valid reason.. Personal protection is not vaild. Sporting shooters are allowed and encouraged by the firearms act's but they must have evidence of permission to shoot on private property or be a member of a registed gun club.

 

* Must pass a convictions check.

 

* Must have valid referances.

 

* Semi automatic centrefire firearms are banned unless you hold a "d" licence. These are almost impossible to get unless you are a professional shooter.

 

* Pistol licences are also VERY difficult to get with a full ban on semi automatic pistols.

 

* You must be able to demonsrate a secure storage facility with bolts and ammo held seperatly.

 

* You must pass a state approved safety course run by the local firearms officer.

 

* All firearms must be registed.

 

Semi-automatic center fire rifles are designed for a battlefield not for civilian use. They are designed to increase the kill rate. One shot one kill moto for hunting is the humane way. If you need to take a second shot, fast, then you need LOTS more practice at the rifle range.

 

Most of these items have been put in place on knee jerk reactions. The basis of these laws have a common sense approach but the one thing that fails the system is that crooks still have guns. The current statics state that there were 3 times the amount of knife based murders than shootings and of these 90% where illegally owned.

 

The law system in Australia does'nt have a bill of rights and I believe it is a better system. We are intitled to complete freedom to do whatever we fell like unless a law has been written to cover that behavior. The Amercian system of a bill of rights works the wrong way in that the only rights you have are the ones the government has given you. Amercia the land of the not so free and not so Equal.

[94extreme]

Why can't a guy go ride his horse in the woods with a gun? Something wrong with that? Maybe he was expecting cougars or wanted to do some target practice outside a shooting range, etc.

 

 

wilderness area and this is Indiana man, not a freaking dangerous animal within a 500mi. i had absolutely no issue with a couple of rough looking guys popping out onto the road in front of me in MT. it was wierd but they were in real bush and i think i would have wanted a piece if i was them too.

[94extreme]

The Amercian system of a bill of rights works the wrong way in that the only rights you have are the ones the government has given you. Amercia the land of the not so free and not so Equal.

 

here you only have the rights you claim actually. sad but true. claim = $$$

[hoohaa]

Vee Six, I have no response to your attack on my country and its constitution. I believe the readers of this thread will see through you and the positions you advocate based on the nature and content of your "arguments", which have proven to quickly disintegrate into personal attacks and name calling when challenged. Please see this thread for one example.

 

I believe gun control is an excellent topic of debate; however, the very subtitle of this thread and the first post are clearly biased. Perhaps someone more neutral should start a thread and moderate the comments. Vee Six and everyone should be free to participate, but should be removed from the debate the very moment they resort to name calling or personal attacks.

 

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one."

 

- Thomas Jefferson, Quoting Cesare Beccari's "On Crimes and Punishment".

 

 

 

 

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary

safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

 

- Benjamin Franklin, from the Pennsylvania Assembly's reply to

the Governor of Pennsylvania, Nov 11 1755.

 

 

 

 

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of

other countries, whose people are afraid to trust them with arms."

 

- James Madison, Federalist Paper 46.

 

 

 

 

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun

registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead."

 

- Adolf Hitler, Chancellor's Speech, 1935

Edited July 24, 2007 by hoohaa

[dkpath96]

The law system in Australia does'nt have a bill of rights and I believe it is a better system. We are intitled to complete freedom to do whatever we fell like unless a law has been written to cover that behavior. The Amercian system of a bill of rights works the wrong way in that the only rights you have are the ones the government has given you. Amercia the land of the not so free and not so Equal.

 

I couldn't disagree more. I'm enjoying my freedom here in the USA to its fullest extent. I can do whatever I want, within reason and law, just as you can. And I can fire my centerfired, semiautomatic assault rifle in my back yard... only because I live in the country and have a big back yard, mind you.

 

And don't watch CNN or FOX news for equal rights information... just visit NYC or Boston or wherever, and you will see that no matter your ethnicity, you have your freedoms. But let us not digress into THAT topic.

[94extreme]

I couldn't disagree more. I'm enjoying my freedom here in the USA to its fullest extent. I can do whatever I want, within reason and law, just as you can. And I can fire my centerfired, semiautomatic assault rifle in my back yard... only because I live in the country and have a big back yard, mind you.

 

And don't watch CNN or FOX news for equal rights information... just visit NYC or Boston or wherever, and you will see that no matter your ethnicity, you have your freedoms. But let us not digress into THAT topic.

 

 

YOU WOULDN'T KNOW IT UNLESS YOU ACTUALLY LIVED SOMEPLACE ELSE AND GOT TO EXPERIENCE THEIR LEVEL OF FREEDOM.. THERE ARE DEFINITE TRADOFFS EITHER WAY. AMERICA IS NOT AS FREE AS MOST INHABITANTS THINK IT IS.

[dkpath96]

Point taken, mzxtreme. However, your point applies to wannabe's comments on which country's rights system is better, too. Unless, of course, wannabe has lived in America.

[Vsicks Pathy]

* I am a shooter and agree that limits need to be imposed for safety of the people.

 

Gun control is Australia is also a "sore" point. Yes Australia has had some major mass shootings and the laws have been tightened up. To buy a gun in Australia can be difficult.

 

To gain a shooter licence..

 

* Must have a valid reason.. Personal protection is not vaild. Sporting shooters are allowed and encouraged by the firearms act's but they must have evidence of permission to shoot on private property or be a member of a registed gun club.

 

* Must pass a convictions check.

 

* Must have valid referances.

 

* Semi automatic centrefire firearms are banned unless you hold a "d" licence. These are almost impossible to get unless you are a professional shooter.

 

* Pistol licences are also VERY difficult to get with a full ban on semi automatic pistols.

 

* You must be able to demonsrate a secure storage facility with bolts and ammo held seperatly.

 

* You must pass a state approved safety course run by the local firearms officer.

 

* All firearms must be registed.

 

Semi-automatic center fire rifles are designed for a battlefield not for civilian use. They are designed to increase the kill rate. One shot one kill moto for hunting is the humane way. If you need to take a second shot, fast, then you need LOTS more practice at the rifle range.

 

Most of these items have been put in place on knee jerk reactions. The basis of these laws have a common sense approach but the one thing that fails the system is that crooks still have guns. The current statics state that there were 3 times the amount of knife based murders than shootings and of these 90% where illegally owned.

 

The law system in Australia does'nt have a bill of rights and I believe it is a better system. We are intitled to complete freedom to do whatever we fell like unless a law has been written to cover that behavior. The Amercian system of a bill of rights works the wrong way in that the only rights you have are the ones the government has given you. Amercia the land of the not so free and not so Equal.

 

That's it, Australia's gun control in a nut shell. Much like speeding limits on our roads when you look at it. Controls put in place to keep the toll down; be them speed limits, roundabouts or speed humps. I don't like them but they are there and we all do our best to comply.

 

An interesting point here is "One shot one kill moto for hunting". It was taken from the Australian Armies moto of 'one shot one kill'. A mate of mine recently got back from Iraq and was amazed with the amount of ammo carried by US troupes. He said it explained why they couldn't cover much ground.. They carried too much weight. The US soldiers were equally amazed by how little ammo was carried by the Aussies. I then found this.... Link

 

The personal comments are your own re knee jerk reaction etc.... Re the bill of rights.... LOOK OUT! you will probably feel the wrath of some on this board for them.

[wannabe]

Point taken, mzxtreme. However, your point applies to wannabe's comments on which country's rights system is better, too. Unless, of course, wannabe has lived in America.

 

 

Never lived there but have visited on several occasions was not impressed with the governmental system.

 

Australia has developed a unique democratic system where everybody has a valued input. Everybody has a vote unless you have a criminal conviction of a certain level, you don't need to meet certain conditions to exercise your "rights" except that you must be a citizen. Australia has a compulsory voting system so if the majority don't like the government they get kicked out. We do have a tendency to "sack" Governments that don't respect our collective values. Our voter turnout is over 90% while the USA average's just 40%. The majority truly rules in principle.

 

Everybody is treated exactly the same under the law and the Government can't remove the "Rights" of foreigners once they are on Australian soil. All persons in Australia are treated the same. The Australians attitude of a "fair go" is the major difference. Our current Government with it's Americanized attitude and complete lack of respect is about to get a major "sacking". Yes I am fairly left wing but I see that as a positive.

 

A society can only be judged based on how well it treats it's disadvantaged. Anyone can get a "university" education as long as you meet the education standards of that course. The cost is covered by our government but some of this cost is payed back thru the tax system once the student starts earning a certain amount per year. Financial support is in place for most students. Places are limited to a certain number and only the "top" level students get those places based on their results from high school. If your good enough you get the place no matter what your place in society. Prisoners in jail regularly get university degree's and this is encouraged.

 

Our "basic" health system is open to all at no cost other than the "Medicare" levy that applies to all tax payers. (around 1%) of income. Don't have a job you can still go to the Doctor and get treatment with medicine costing around Aus$4 (US$3.20) for a welfare recipient. If you are in a public hospital all costs are covered under the universal health care system. We are all entitled to health care even if you don't have health insurance.

 

I know this rant is slightly off subject but also points to one underlaying truth between both systems. We can both do anything we like unless it impacts on others. I don't like the concept of everyone carrying a gun, Maybe I just don't trust people not to get angry and act like an idiot. Every right has a higher responsibility.[/b]

[Dark94XE]

The Aussie law on handgun licensing looks very much like the one here in CT. Sidearms are required to be concealed, and there are EXTENSIVE background checks and you are required to pass a state certified firearm safety course. You are, though allowed to own semi automatic rifles.

V6, I hope that comment about the amount of ammunition carried by American troops in Iraq wasn't a dig. The whole "one shot one kill" thing in combat is a load of crap. The last thing you want when there are unfriendlies trying to to do to you, what you're trying to do to them, is to run out of ammo. But anyway, I think I'll bow out of this discussion before I make new enemies, this is supposed to be a friendly forum and this post can go nowhere but downhill.

[94extreme]

Point taken, mzxtreme. However, your point applies to wannabe's comments on which country's rights system is better, too. Unless, of course, wannabe has lived in America.

 

didn't mean to shout, at work it's all caps, all the time. lol

 

anyway, he may think his system is better (as he should,) you may think out system is better (and you should) and i really don't know man. (someone has to ask the questions, no? )

 

i like my guns man. i never really feel all that comfortable carrying mine, like downtown or any other really busy place.. i think a presence of a gun puts people in a weird spot. that's from personal expereince too. only really applies to city folk. country people who grow up around guns don't sweat them. city people for some reason do to some extent at least. i have noticed the difference many times. the ratio of gun familiar people in the city is way, way small.

 

but, i also see some advantages of gun control. i don't necessarily like gun registry of any kind (there is one actually even though it's hush, hush) and i don't necessarily like the government telling me wheather i am worthy of one or not. some background check is probably necessary as well as proof of markmanship would probably go a long way of at least stemming some of the sensless non criminal gun deaths.

 

i have lived under strict gun control before and the crime rate was basically zero.. just like the stats from one of the previous links. the guns are taken out of the question for the most part. in those countries when the guns come out, it's serious guns, not hand cannons or even shotguns. that's the only bad thing.. but it happens so much more rarely then here in the US. all that said, i still love my guns and i don't think i could live in AU or EU for that reason alone.

 

 

as to healthcare.. in reality everyone is "covered" here too. bums get treatment just like everyone.. well, you know.. ;( same goes for our justice system. it's definitely ju$t alright. and i am not saying social health is better but it probably is the right thing to do, imho. we can't even imagine our world w/o social security, just give the healthcare a few years and most wouldn't even remember it being an issue.

 

the voter turnout here is definitely dumbfounding to me. the bitching is almost @ 100% though.

 

 

oh, and i am a little surprised that none mentioned the part about super power so i will just throw that out there for ya'll. hehe :D

[wannabe]

One last comment! Low crime countries have a low crime culture. Social welfare systems have a large impact both postive and negative.

 

Wannabe

[Vsicks Pathy]

The Aussie law on handgun licensing looks very much like the one here in CT. Sidearms are required to be concealed, and there are EXTENSIVE background checks and you are required to pass a state certified firearm safety course. You are, though allowed to own semi automatic rifles.

V6, I hope that comment about the amount of ammunition carried by American troops in Iraq wasn't a dig. The whole "one shot one kill" thing in combat is a load of crap. The last thing you want when there are unfriendlies trying to to do to you, what you're trying to do to them, is to run out of ammo. But anyway, I think I'll bow out of this discussion before I make new enemies, this is supposed to be a friendly forum and this post can go nowhere but downhill.

 

I am just trying to make sense of your weapons culture. It seems to be a "blaze away" culture, and from the very top (shock and awe) down. It is encouraged. The NRA encourages it??

I wasn't having a dig at Iraq. Sorry if you thought I was. Iraq is a dirty word but don't forget.. We are involved in that illegal mess to our eyeballs too.

 

As far as what my mate said.... He had grave concerns. I will not say anything further, as what was said to me WILL offend.

 

 

The one shot one kill line isn't crap either. Travel light and and move quickly... Common sense. You're special forces will back this line of thinking up too. It is how we (AU) train them. Aussie soldiers must positively identify the target before they take action on it. It saves lots of bullets and a lot of unnecessary casualties. I like that.

 

 

This is a friendly forum. If you post in good will and steer clear of certain postings that set out to provoke people, then there will be no reason for it to go downhill.