JeffsR50 Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 My '97 Pathy SE will start right up every time when its been sitting for a while. (few hours) Drive it, (runs great!) turn it off, get back in within an hour of driving, and the motor will crank and crank, but no turnover. I do have engine codes, P1447 canister burst code, and P0325 knock sensor. (Took off and shook out the canister, (new one is in the mail), blew out the lines, tested the purge volume control valve under the hood (seems to be ok). I still need to test the canister vent control valve (will replace when the can gets here) It seemed strange to me that either of these could cause my warm starting problem?? Therefore I have thus far replaced - fuel pressure regulator, (also checked fuel injectors for leaking - no leaks), distibutor cap and rotor, plugs, wires, air filter, fuel filter. Still hard starting when warm. Anyone know if the purge control valve or the charcoal problem in general could cause this? ..or a bad knock sensor? -Ive read about fuel pumps bleeding pressure, but would it start right up when cold? Im thinking other possibilities are a bad MAF? (cleaned it, no dice) - Or a bad alternator? - not just cap n rotor? ...Anybody else had experiences like this? Feels a bit like Im throwing money at every part of the girl except where she needs it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quaintbucket Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 The evap stuff should not affect your vehicle. If it's cranking but not turning over, then I would look at the following things. - starter - distributor (cap, rotor, ignition coil) - spark wires - spark plugs When was the last time you've done a tune up? My other thought is that there could be a clog in your fuel line (sediments?) that doesn't block anything until it is disturbed enough for it. Have you the fuel filter changed? MAF shouldn't affect it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffsR50 Posted September 1, 2014 Author Share Posted September 1, 2014 Hi QB thanks, yep did the cap and rotor, (not the coil, if I do that dont I have to replace the whole distributor?) did new plugs and wires, new fuel filter, new air filter. the odd thing is, that when it has been sitting for awhile it will start right up, and runs great! ....just dont turn it off and go into the store. ...it really does seem to be a fuel issue, either too much or not enough..I saw a thread about cleaning the cam position sensor(s) helping with this problem, Im going to try it as well as a new evap can purge valve tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffsR50 Posted September 1, 2014 Author Share Posted September 1, 2014 ..considering a new distributor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quaintbucket Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Yeah the ignition coil basically means replacing the entire distributor. It is probably the most expensive part out of all of them so I wouldn't replace it so soon. Since you have done all of those already, I'm pretty confused that you're still having the issue regardless. Even more puzzling, your engine is running well. More someone can chime in more than I can. I would have to think about it... Does your pathfinder run a little hotter than normal? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffsR50 Posted September 1, 2014 Author Share Posted September 1, 2014 Temp seems fine while shes going down the road...if its overheated I havent noticed it- temp guage has always been right down the middle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 (edited) Sounds like the CAS inside the distributor. Notorious for heat soaking and failing, then working fine when it's cooled off. When it won't start, check for spark at one of the plugs and if none check for any output voltage at the CAS plug where it meets the engine harness when cranking. If that checks out fine, listen for the fuel pump. It should prime for 5 seconds when you turn the ignition to on. If not test from there, if all power to the pump is good then beat on the gas tank and the pump may come to life. If it's getting fuel but no spark, you'd smell the flooded engine in the exhaust. A faulty ECM Coolant Temp Sensor will cause hard starting when warm as it tends to flood the engine and throw the timing curve and injector latency out of whack. Edited September 1, 2014 by Kingman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffsR50 Posted September 2, 2014 Author Share Posted September 2, 2014 (edited) Update - yep forked out the 240$ for a new distributor assembly- figured I get the coil, the cps, all in one shot. - tried the coolant temp sensor first 28$, no luck. install wasn't too bad, but still hard starting! (A little squirt of starting fluid into the intake and she starts). ?? somehow not enough fuel at startup? ..but only when engine is warm. and when its running it runs well, doesn't stumble or hesitate when you give it gas. this really has me stymied now. ...I really am still coming back to the EVAP canister purge..(maybe stuck open or closed?!) but still don't know if that could cause this. ...also, I do hear the hum of the fuel pump, but could it get crappy as it gets hot? -also I would imagine I would see some sort of performance issue or hesitation if the pump was weak. Edited September 2, 2014 by JeffsR50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffsR50 Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 new fuel pump... ran real rough right after intall...now shes running better- put some injector cleaner in, but the hot start was still an issue last night, we'll see how today goes.. Really want to take her to the hills this weekend!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffsR50 Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) update- new fuel pump really made a difference in the operation of the motor, at first very rough which tells me that the maybe comp was compensating for low fuel pressure.? Duh moment - when I realized that the throttle body had some funk - some maf cleaner and a clean rag pulled out some nasty blackness.. at which point I realized that the p1447 charcoal burst most likely had spewed at least some dust beyond the soloniod and sent pure black carbon into my intake. (seafoam time) - put 1/3 can into the brake booster line, 1/3 in the fuel tank and also 1/3 into the oil. Let it sit around 10 min, go out start it up (started right up!). seemed much more responsive, no stalling or hesitation, but now the real test - 10 min later - started on the first crank. 30 min later - 1st crank. (like she should) Im doing some prayer, and voodoo ritual karma dance but....- I think it's fixed!!! WOOT. Edited September 3, 2014 by JeffsR50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffsR50 Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 still plan on doing the knock sensor relocation - just ordered parts online KS and harness 28$ w shipping. called the dealership? - they show no harness available ..BUT! they had the knock sensor in stock for $258. WTF? just insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixinto Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 i wouldnt even worry about the knock sensor. I bought mine 6 years ago, it had a knock sensor code the entire time i drove it and it drove fine. I replaced the knock sensor when i was down that far for other things about a year ago. I figure if it went bad and it is throwing a code, at least it went bad in such a way that it didnt put you in limp mode so....why even bother. =) got my knock sensor from ebay for 18 bux. Been in there almost a year and working fine. Glad you got er goin Pat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quaintbucket Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Yeah, I will second that. the KS doesn't really do a whole lot other than adjusting your timing. I have had the KS code for a year and a half since I owned the vehicle before I finally got tired of seeing P0325 on my OBDII reader. I did the relocation just to get rid of the code but it did not change the performance. I did it while I was doing my tune up too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffsR50 Posted September 12, 2014 Author Share Posted September 12, 2014 ok - yep KS can wait. ...and DOH !! my warm start issue is back?! only occasionally, and she runs very good - starts right up when cold, although her idle is a bit high (1300) - Im wondering if my ignition timing might be a bit off after replacing the distrib. - my next endeavour will be to take off and clean the crankshaft position sensor. Ive heard that metal shavings and dirt on it can cause the symptoms that Im having. Probably try that tommorow. She carried me right up the hill last week camping - despite these few issues I was proud of her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebelord Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Follow the fsm to set your timing. 15-17* base. Could be why your warm start also. If the cylinder are hot and your spark is too soon it can cause issues. Sent from my Moto X 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixinto Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 yes sir, depending on how far out your timing is, it could cause a slow to start "crank multiple times" or a no start, would have to be pretty bad though. Not sure if the timing would make a cold / hot difference. /shrug Before you throw any parts at it, take a little bit of time to think it through. You can easily throw a dizzy, new plugs, wires, and so on and so forth, but still end up with the same issue. so i would recommend not replacing anything before you run some diagnostics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixinto Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 sigh, somehow i jacked up and posted early and by the time i typed 800000000 words the edit time had passed so i will just add to it. what i was going to say was...If you replaced the distributor be sure the knotch on the gear and the shaft are properly aligned. Set the number 1 to TDC and when you drop the distributor in keep in mind it rotates a good bit. i generally use about 1/2 way between the number one and the one before that when i do mine. "and dont confuse the hole through the gear for the knotch" can happen in poor lighting, not telling you how i know that "(cough, cough)" If you haven't cleaned your MAF yet, let the truck cool off 1/2 an hour or so, yank it, clean it and reinstall it. I use a qtip and 90 percent alcohol or Maf spray and a qtip. "there are some that would disagree with the qtip thing" just like anything else, but i have cleaned A LOT of mafs and have had no issue with the qtip thing whenever the wire was given enough time to completely cool down. just be gentle with it. If you were thinking of buying something for it, because it might be bad, personally i would hold off on that and purchase a tool to test things with and assist me with the diagnostics process. A good set of tools can be built up slowly and could save you lots of $ over the years. Being that you have a "warm start Issue" i would be leaning toward a sensor of some sort over timing, being as when you first start it and its cold the ECU dont use most of the sensors because its running in open loop. When it gets up to operating temp it switches over to real time fuel regulation and such. "closed loop" but an el cheapo multi meter, and a wireless obdII would be handy "if you have a smart phone" you can get torque and a blue tooth obdII reader and read sensor voltage in real time. "very useful" i got my bluetooth OBDII reader from amazon for 30 shipped, if there is a harbor freight around you, they have digital ohm / volt meters for 6 dollars or so. I would love to throw a suggestion at you about what to change but im afraid with the data i have i would be throwing a guess out there, and no matter how good of a guess it is, i could cost you money needlessly. Wow, kindof going on and on, sorry about that. I will sum up my two cents, Keep a decent set of diagnostics tools and the FSM close at hand, take your time, start with free stuff. "stuff you can clean, adjust, measure" you will probably end up finding a sensor that reads at least questionable on a V or Ohm check. "if it is a sensor". Have fun wrenching on your ride, i know i do. Hope you get it lined out Pat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffsR50 Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 thanks very much for the help guys - yep fix I do have a obd11 reader (the simple cheap one from harbor freight) - although I know someone who has a fancier one that digs deeper ..Im thinking of having him come over and see what info he can get. -no check engine codes as of right now after driving for several days. - tried to get to the CKP over the weekend - no way Im getting my arm up into there without removing exhaust etc. dammit!! - MAF is crystal clean. Finally got the new evap canister installed, pretty sure the charcoal is all blown out.. - the other interesting thing to me in all of this is the fact that - when shes hard starting? a little starting fluid in the intake and she fires right up and runs great other than the fast idle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebelord Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Stay away from starting fluid. Bad juju. Whats your fuel pressure at? In the fsm there is instructions on how to test it. I wonder if the pump isn't getting enough pressure up to load the fuel rails for start but keeps enough going to keep it running. Sent from my Moto X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 It's fine just go easy with it, not too hard to pre- detonate an engine and the cats don't like it much. However, never use it on a diesel with glow plugs. That's knocking on the Devil's door right thurr. Make sure the timing is in order, and make sure that the ECU is holding the fuel pump on for 5? seconds before shutting off and it has full line pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffsR50 Posted September 16, 2014 Author Share Posted September 16, 2014 yeah I always try it a few good cranks prior to resorting to the fluid...I did replace the fuel filter and pump (pain in the arse that pump was), im looking to get a fuel pressure kit to test my system specifically after the key is turned off....... on the other hand, I did solve my high idle problem! -by a stretch of imagination, I determined that my fast idle should force my attention to the (what the heck) "fast idle cam". Yeppers- there it was, the cam itself at a full warm temp and opened all the way, yet still keeping the throttle from closing all the way to the sacred factory screw. A little tightening on the cam screw, just enough to let the throttle close, and voila' 750 rpm...yay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebelord Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 You know, I would make sure sure, your distributor is in correct at TDC when dropped. I only say, because when I did my timing belt. When I stabbed mine back in, it was off a tooth and would not start/run at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffsR50 Posted September 16, 2014 Author Share Posted September 16, 2014 yep I knew how important the line-up was- I know I nailed the right tooth and the rotor was aimed right ..I even marked the housing and lined it up just like the prev distrib. ..my main question is whether it might have been out in the first place, but really she does run pretty well once were going down the road. no overheating at all...main issue is truly the starting...hoping maybe that the throttle cam might have been doing it? .(please please )..yeah that might be asking a bit much. we'll see. next is fuel pressure kit and timing light 40$ harbor freight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebelord Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Dont have or see what its doing in front of me. So, just tossing idea's here. But, amp draw on battery when starting? Maybe dropping enough to still spin engine but cant push enough to coil, or wires frayed etc going bugger under heavy load/heat. Um, if you manually hold the throttle body open just a hair, by gas pedal or physically by hand at the throttle body, does it start? Does your OBD II scanner have the capability to read timing live? Like while its running etc? If so, maybe see where the ECU is putting the timing while you try to start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixinto Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) Happy you got the fast idle cam sorted, mine took a dump "well the thermal element" and i priced one at 150 and special order, so instead i backed the screw off, and flipped that rascal over backward." ECU still idles it up to 1200 on cold start so that little bastage is a .....piece of $H*& anyways. as far as i can tell you dont even need it. "maybe it makes a difference in sub 0 or something" /shrug, coldest ive cranked it with it unhooked is 4 and wind chill -7 F worked fine for me. About your fuel delivery. 1. make sure you put the filter on in the proper flow direction. 2. make sure the purge for the vapor in the gas tank isnt stuck open 3. make sure your regulator is ..well um regulating hehe. .....wish i had some more free suggestions but i think that will probably do for now. However, if you take care of those 3 things that eliminates everything from the rails backward for fuel delivery. I am not sure if you had the intake off. But make sure the vacuum line behind the intake "closer to the passenger side" is hooked up to the regulator, and be sure the rubber vacuum line connecting one part of the metal piping to the other isnt boogered. Personally i think that if it were a vacuum leak it would make a rough stumbling idle at best and a choked out kindof trying to die thing going on if it were worse. So i dont really expect it to be that, but i just thought i would throw it out there. Also give your steering wheel a bump left and right, and make sure it bumps it up 50 to 100 rpm, that is a quick and dirty way to see if your IACV is functioning. P.S. if the vacuum line is off of the regulator, it will cause, poor fuel eco, slight valve chatter under load, "like uphill on the interstate and such" not telling you how i know that either "cough cough" Making progress, keep up the good work. Pat Edited September 16, 2014 by fixinto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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