V8path Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I'm thinking about moving the front axle forward about 1.25 to 1.5" (oil pan clearance) and this would require either also moving the steering gear box forward about 2". The other option is going to a forward facing pitman arm, using a Scout II or Land Cruiser (FJ60 or FJ62) steering gear, but I might have problems with the mount being further back than stock due to the coil over shook hoops mounted to the side of frame. The forward facing pitman would also help with tire clearance as the pitman arm would swing left as the tire is turned to the left, where not the pitman arm swings left as the tire is turned to the right. I had to make some adjustments to limit the amount the tires turned to avoid tire - pitman arm contact. Anyone done or have some experience with something like this?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill.Potter Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 (edited) First I cut the old sleeves out of the frame (not that easy Nissan wleded a bracket inside the frame to locate them correctly at the factory. This is all the junk that came out... Cut a frame plate on the torchmate.... (holes are for rosette welds) Test fit... welded in place.... Close up with Toyota box and forward sweeping arm.... I didn't take any pictures of the sleeves...but they were cut out of a peice of dom and welded to the back of the plate before I welded the plate on the frame. There was a similar plate on the back side of the frame behind the steering box. Edited August 26, 2014 by Bill.Potter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill.Potter Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 (edited) "The forward facing pitman would also help with tire clearance as the pitman arm would swing left as the tire is turned to the left, where not the pitman arm swings left as the tire is turned to the right. I had to make some adjustments to limit the amount the tires turned to avoid tire - pitman arm contact." This doesn't make sense? Forward or Rear swinging arms both still go the same way to turn the tires left or right. Edited August 26, 2014 by Bill.Potter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8path Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 "The forward facing pitman would also help with tire clearance as the pitman arm would swing left as the tire is turned to the left, where not the pitman arm swings left as the tire is turned to the right. I had to make some adjustments to limit the amount the tires turned to avoid tire - pitman arm contact." This doesn't make sense? Forward or Rear swinging arms both still go the same way to turn the tires left or right. Yeah you're correct. I was thinking about 2 different issues I had when making the earlier post. I had to limit (a small amount) the amount the tire could turn inwards as at full turn there was contact with the sway bar. The reason I need to move the steering gear is to make room for moving the axle fwd, and having room for the frame panhard mount. I'll have to move the sway bar mount forward as well. That's nice work what you did, but I won't be able to go back that far in re-plating the frame rail as I've coil-over shock hoops mounted on the side of the frame rails. I suppose there's always strengthen the frame rails as far as you've done, and re-doing the shock hoops as that would give it a thicker piece of steel to weld the hoops to. More work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill.Potter Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Mine will have hoops...they are just not welded on yet. That and air bumps is actually why the plate goes that far back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8path Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 First I cut the old sleeves out of the frame (not that easy Nissan wleded a bracket inside the frame to locate them correctly at the factory. This is all the junk that came out... Cut a frame plate on the torchmate.... (holes are for rosette welds) Test fit... welded in place.... Close up with Toyota box and forward sweeping arm.... I didn't take any pictures of the sleeves...but they were cut out of a peice of dom and welded to the back of the plate before I welded the plate on the frame. There was a similar plate on the back side of the frame behind the steering box. Couple of questions... Is that a LandCruiser Steering Gear and Pitman Arm? Is the drag Link in front of tie rods. Also, am guessing on the inside frame rail, the new piece didn't go back as far as the front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill.Potter Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Couple of questions... Is that a LandCruiser Steering Gear and Pitman Arm? Is the drag Link in front of tie rods. Also, am guessing on the inside frame rail, the new piece didn't go back as far as the front? Yes it's a land cruiser box and arm. The arm will be switched out to a trail gear arm. The track bar (drag link?) will be a few inches behind the tie rod in the picture. Everything is being designed to clear everything else....that way the axle can tuck until the top of the Y arms touch the frame rails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8path Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 Mine will have hoops...they are just not welded on yet. That and air bumps is actually why the plate goes that far back. That makes sense. I welded 2x2 1/4 wall sq tubing to the frame rails, and sleeved the shook hoops and welded them to the 2x2 tubing. Then added gussets to the the 2x2 sq tubing on the frame rail, and ran a support tube off each side of the hoops (onto the top pf the frame) for added strength and support. The material on the frame rails is pretty thin... It would be a lot of work to take this part and run the new piece of metal along the frame rails back that far. I was originally thinking of drilling new bolts holes and adding a sleeve, along with 1/4 plate on both sides of the frame for strength. Are you using a Land Cruiser steering gear and pitman arm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill.Potter Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 That makes sense. I welded 2x2 1/4 wall sq tubing to the frame rails, and sleeved the shook hoops and welded them to the 2x2 tubing. Then added gussets to the the 2x2 sq tubing on the frame rail, and ran a support tube off each side of the hoops (onto the top pf the frame) for added strength and support. The material on the frame rails is pretty thin... It would be a lot of work to take this part and run the new piece of metal along the frame rails back that far. I was originally thinking of drilling new bolts holes and adding a sleeve, along with 1/4 plate on both sides of the frame for strength. Are you using a Land Cruiser steering gear and pitman arm? If you have already taken care of the shock hoop strength. I would just build plates for the new steering box. Keep in mind installing new sleeves is not as easy as drilling new holes in the frame. Nissan made that difficult when they used the internal bracket to locate the stock sleeves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8path Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 Yes it's a land cruiser box and arm. The arm will be switched out to a trail gear arm. The track bar (drag link?) will be a few inches behind the tie rod in the picture. Everything is being designed to clear everything else....that way the axle can tuck until the top of the Y arms touch the frame rails. The track bar / panhard goes to the rear of the tie rods, that makes sense. The drag link is the bar off the pitman arm that attaches to the steering arm on the passenger side, and you have that in front of the tie rod link. Are you using hi-steer arms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill.Potter Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 The track bar / panhard goes to the rear of the tie rods, that makes sense. The drag link is the bar off the pitman arm that attaches to the steering arm on the passenger side, and you have that in front of the tie rod link. Are you using hi-steer arms? oops sorry...yes the drag link is in the front. It's designed using a Y-link from RuffStuff. High steer would not tuck as well and would be much harder to get the correct aligment on the drag link and track bar for zero bump steer. http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/YLINK.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8path Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 oops sorry...yes the drag link is in the front. It's designed using a Y-link from RuffStuff. High steer would not tuck as well and would be much harder to get the correct aligment on the drag link and track bar for zero bump steer. http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/YLINK.html The design of the front end of the frame on the Pathfinders doesn't allow much room for up travel. I thought about going to the Artec Arm and Knuckle kit, as it allows multiple mounting options - high enough to give better steering arm angles, and a mid mounting location between the steering arm and knuckle location to get the tie rod links up a bit higher, but not as high as it would be for top mounting on a standard D44 steering arm. http://www.artecindustries.com/Dana-44-High-Steer-Arms--Pair_p_220.html Now that mine is up and running, I'm into that phase of whether to leave the original design or go to (spending more time and $) improvements now that the initial learning curve is into stage 2. I'd be interested to see how the upper link design you have works. Most of us have gone to a truss over the diff set up, and with the limited space (for me it was the oil pan), the truss made the design work challenging unless going to a great deal of lift. Your setup is similiar to the radius arms on the Ford Bronco (not sure what years). If your design works really well, I might have to consider going and re-doing mine. What is the amount of separation between the lower and upper axle mounting points. What size tire are you planning to run. I've got about 350 HP and 375 lbs of torgue, so I wanted to keep the lift reasonable. If I went to another 2-3 inches of lift, most of my clearance issues are gone, but then so is the street handling. Do you have a pic of the LC steering box mounted from further back to see where is sits relative to the other components? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill.Potter Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 The other items (track bar mount, air bump, and shock mounts) are next in the build. With stock waggy knuckles the tie rod holes are drilled so the tie rod end goes on the top of the arm. This results in a fairly high tie rod. (Most Chevy knuckles are drilled so the tie rod end goes on the bottom) The y-arms (radius arms) have been used on many builds. While they bind more then a 3 link it's not that hard to make the design flex 14inch shocks. On the plus side the binding actually provides a bit of an anti-sway effect. Most of this build is just following ideas posted in Ryan's past build threads on his pathfinder, and a couple of X's he has built. He doesn't post much detail in the threads but i'm lucky enough to be able drive over and have a beer with him when I get stuck. http://www.nissanpathfinders.net/forum/topic/31207-87-twin-turbo-sas-1-inch-l http://www.roninwheelers.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?61-Kevin-Alpine-Spirit/page15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill.Potter Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 As for the oil pan.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8path Posted August 27, 2014 Author Share Posted August 27, 2014 If you have already taken care of the shock hoop strength. I would just build plates for the new steering box. Keep in mind installing new sleeves is not as easy as drilling new holes in the frame. Nissan made that difficult when they used the internal bracket to locate the stock sleeves. Yeah, I think with the gussets, sleeves and secondary support tubes, I'm ok with the shock hoops. As for the oil pan, that's a bit different story. With the SBC LT1, the OEM oil pan (already modified) is an issue. I've seen guys with S10 SBC swaps use 2 of the 88-95 S10 4x4 oil pans and cut cut them (each with 1/2 the extra distance between a V6 and V8 block), and weld the 2 pieces together to extend the overall length of one oil pan. The rear sump on the S10 4x4 pan is deeper, but "front to back" of the sump is shorter and ideal for swapping a pre LS SBC into a 4x4 SAS. I did some measuring today and it looks like with the planned new oil pan, the axle only needs to go forward approx. 1/2" to 3/4". Everything is in there pretty tight, so I'll likely move the steering gear forward 1 1/2" and retain the Nissan Steering Gear. I'm not familiar with what is inside the frame to locate the stock steering gear sleeves. What's in there? I was hoping to use a hole saw and weld in sleeves using DOM. In case I decide to go with the FJ60/FJ62 steering gear box, I'm looking for a few measurements to see how that would work. What is the measurement from the rear mounting bolt center to the center of the end of the pitman arm mounting hole for the drag link? This will give me an idea of high far forward the pitman arm would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8path Posted August 27, 2014 Author Share Posted August 27, 2014 First I cut the old sleeves out of the frame (not that easy Nissan wleded a bracket inside the frame to locate them correctly at the factory. This is all the junk that came out... Cut a frame plate on the torchmate.... (holes are for rosette welds) Test fit... welded in place.... Close up with Toyota box and forward sweeping arm.... I didn't take any pictures of the sleeves...but they were cut out of a peice of dom and welded to the back of the plate before I welded the plate on the frame. There was a similar plate on the back side of the frame behind the steering box. Re drilling and putting a sleeve through the frame and welding to relocate the steering gear, and found these links and the write up of what he did. Sounds easy enough and he didn't mention anything about the inner brackets in the frame rails? What do you think. http://www.piratepat...elocation17.JPG http://www.piratepat...elocation16.JPG What I did was first drill pilot holes all the way through the frame. Then, I took a hole saw and drilled holes a bit larger than some DOM tube I had (that fit the steering box mounting bolts), again all the way through the frame. I took the DOM and cut it into sections about 1/2" longer than the width of the frame rail. Then, I bolted the box to the tube sections while they were in the frame, and tack welded them in place on the back side of the frame. Then, just unbolt the box, weld the tacked-in-place tube fully front and back, and then grind smooth on the outer face of the frame. Done. Makes for a nice precision mounted steering box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8path Posted August 27, 2014 Author Share Posted August 27, 2014 Re drilling and putting a sleeve through the frame and welding to relocate the steering gear, and found these links and the write up of what he did. Sounds easy enough and he didn't mention anything about the inner brackets in the frame rails? What do you think. http://www.piratepat...elocation17.JPG http://www.piratepat...elocation16.JPG What I did was first drill pilot holes all the way through the frame. Then, I took a hole saw and drilled holes a bit larger than some DOM tube I had (that fit the steering box mounting bolts), again all the way through the frame. I took the DOM and cut it into sections about 1/2" longer than the width of the frame rail. Then, I bolted the box to the tube sections while they were in the frame, and tack welded them in place on the back side of the frame. Then, just unbolt the box, weld the tacked-in-place tube fully front and back, and then grind smooth on the outer face of the frame. Done. Makes for a nice precision mounted steering box. This is what you must have been referring to as the brackets inside the frame... Someone else's experience. Hardest part of the whole thing so far is just drilling the 3/4" holes for the inserts. It is unbelievable how much steel is in that part of the frame. There are multiple parallel horizontal steel plates that run between the 4 stock mounting holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmoore4512 Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Great topic. Something that I have neglected to think about while gathering parts for this build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill.Potter Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 I tried the hole saw...it did not work for me. Looks like maybe the other guy got lucky on where he located the holes.Looking at his pictures I'm not sure how the steering box fit after moving it. I don't think my truck had enough room to move it forward more then a 1/2inch before it hit the radator. I think you moved your raditor forward so you may not have an issue. This is all the junk that came out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8path Posted August 27, 2014 Author Share Posted August 27, 2014 I tried the hole saw...it did not work for me. Looks like maybe the other guy got lucky on where he located the holes. Looking at his pictures I'm not sure how the steering box fit after moving it. I don't think my truck had enough room to move it forward more then a 1/2inch before it hit the radator. I think you moved your raditor forward so you may not have an issue. This is all the junk that came out... Looking at the location of the other guy's sleeves (they are on the same horizontal line between the original front and rear holes. If he didn't run into a problem with the brackets (apparently, on another thread from another guy, he only had problems with the 2 rearward holes) the brackets inside would have to be an "X", not horizontal? Do you remember what the configuration of the brackets were? http://www.piratepathy.com/photo/sas/PiratePathy_Buildup/2004-06-24%20-%20steering%20box%20relocation/slides/steering_box_relocation16.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8path Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 I think I figured out what he did in order to avoid having to drill thru the bracketry in the frame. http://www.piratepathy.com/photo/sas/PiratePathy_Buildup/2004-06-24%20-%20steering%20box%20relocation/slides/steering_box_relocation16.JPG The are 2 holes (with a nut welded on the inside of the frame - likely for a steering stabilizer mount) on the inside of the frame that are between the front and rear existing steering gear box mounting holes. They are approx. 1 5/16" (maybe 1 3/8") in towards front of the existing holes (ones towards the rear). It looks like they could be drilled out with a hole saw, and then the new front holes moved forward (there's no brackets in front section of the frame) moved forward the same amount and drilled out with a hole saw, and then sleeved. The angle of the mounting location changes slightly, but if looking only for a minor move to clear everything, this seems to be a lot simpler. For added strength, a 1/4" plate on the outside (or both inner and outer) frame could be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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