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Starting issues


hamman
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Hi all,

 

First post here and unfortunately its not a good one! Im having issues with my 1999 3.3 litre R50 Pathfinder starting, essentially it needs to be cranked for ages before it will even consider starting, as in so long it would run the battery flat basically. I have run a scan and getting no codes from it, the previous owner just before i bought it replaced the fuel pump, fuel injectors, distributor, leads and spark plugs,  air filter, battery (670 cca) and timing belt. He couldnt solve the problem so sold it very cheaply to me. When i eventually get it started it actually runs pretty decently but very rich. I am stumped, any help would be much appreciated.

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I'm betting when he replaced the fuel injectors, he probably pinched an oring ever so slightly that it is leaking. I did that on my Maxima when I thought I was being so careful that I hydrolocked the engine while cranking it. When I removed the spark plugs and cranked it to see, it blew fuel 6 feet into the air. If course yours couldn't be that bad.

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3 hours ago, colinnwn said:

I'm betting when he replaced the fuel injectors, he probably pinched an oring ever so slightly that it is leaking. I did that on my Maxima when I thought I was being so careful that I hydrolocked the engine while cranking it. When I removed the spark plugs and cranked it to see, it blew fuel 6 feet into the air. If course yours couldn't be that bad.

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From what he told me, it started when the car just died on him while he was driving, he had it towed back to his place and then he had a mobile mechanic that kept coming out and telling him what he thought the problem was, so basically starting with the fuel pump he worked through that until the injectors etc. The plugs come out covered in fuel every time i try starting it eg i'll clean the spark plugs then try starting it, it will turn over forever to the point that i have a another vehicle running with jumper leads attached to my battery just so i don't run the battery dead because i have to crank it for so long, it will finally start up. Would the vehicle still start (albeit after a lot of cranking) if it was hydrolocked?

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Yours isn't so bad it's hydrolocked with fuel. If it was it would freeze after a quick crank.

But based on you saying the engine runs rich when you can finally get it started, I think fuel is leaking past the fuel injectors enough that it is too rich to fire.

Alternatively you can check to be sure each spark plug is firing, and that the plug cables are correctly wired in order from the distributor. But if they weren't, I'd expect extremely rough running when it does start.

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I'm sorry I missed in your details the PO did all those part swaps trying to fix this hard start issue.

If the hard start was after the timing belt change I would somewhat suspect the belt being off slightly.

But since it was before, have you tried cracking the throttle pedal when you try to start it? Could be the idle air controller or the throttle position sensor is bad.



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If it had one leaky injector, it would have one wet plug. Six wet plugs says it's getting fuel but not firing. Starting and running eventually says it has spark, though it wouldn't hurt to verify that it has spark even when it refuses to start. I like Colinnwn's idea of holding the throttle a little open to rule out an idle control issue. I would also pull the vac line off the fuel pressure regulator to see if it's leaking gas into the manifold. Not likely the problem, but easy enough to check.

 

I'd also be tempted to double-check the tooth counts on the timing belt in case the last guy set it the same as it was when he took it apart rather than looking up the actual specs. Long shot, but something to check if you run out of other things. The ignition timing is probably not set right (tough to set timing on an engine that doesn't run), but I don't think that could cause the issue you're having.

 

Keep an eye on the oil and change it once you've got this figured out. In an engine that's flooding/not firing, the excess gas in the cylinders runs past the rings and dilutes the oil. I've got a small engine in my shop right now that flooded repeatedly due to a carb leak and what I drained out of the crankcase looked more like wood stain than oil.

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I suggest pulling the distributor cap and rotor. Then inspect the cap and rotor for damage. I also suggest removing the dust plate in the bottom of the distributor under the rotor. Look for red or silver dust under the sensor plate. That dust will indicate the bearings in the distributor are failing/failed. Very common problem I have seen here in my area with the VG33 in the R50 Pathfinder. Don't know why I don't see it in the Frontier and Xterra, but seen it a lot in the Pathfinder.  

Edited by Mr_Reverse
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  • 2 months later...

Sorry for the late reply, the car has been at the mechanic for a while. Basically the cam seals had to be done and i simply didn't have the time to do it myself but while he had it I asked him to also replace the timing belt and do the timing on it as it was previously done by the last owner and just wanted to make sure it was all good. It's been put back together (haven't picked it up yet) and still has the same starting issue which the mechanic himself and others cant solve. When i get it back ill have a look at the distributor cap and rotor but as previously mentioned the last owner actually replaced that as well in hopes of fixing the problem so unless he bought a dud potentially? I have no idea what the problem could be at this point.

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I would go back to the basics. I would do fuel pressure checks. That includes checking to see if the system holds pressure. 

Spark check on all 6. 

Compression test all 6

Put a noid light on the injector connector and check for injector pulse. 

 

Check the oil. Your truck symptoms are for flooding, making me think the fuel system control is where the issue is. A few weeks ago, I had a Charger with the 2.7L  that had a similar issue. It had flooded so bad that fuel was leaking out the exhaust pipes and the oil level was pushed 2" above the full line. I pulled the valve covers and found damage on the cams and lifters from running with the contaminated oil. Never chased down the problem since I stopped when I found the fuel tank empty and engine damage. A replacement engine was more that the car was worth and the owner had it towed away. 

Moral of the story, don't let your oil be contaminated with fuel unless it is a 2 cycle, it gets expensive. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

The problem still persists, the compression is good and my mechanic did a fuel pressure test which was also good, I am also getting spark to all 6 cylinders. The injectors all work as when it is able to be started it just runs super rich and there is no misfire, I agree that the issue seems to be related to the fuel system control as the reason it wont start is due to flooding it seems. Maybe an injector that has an extremely bad leak? Even still then surely I would get a code for a rich bank or something along those lines. It's not the ECM as I have had it swapped and tested. Not sure what would be telling the injectors to pump so much fuel.

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I wonder if it has the correct injectors. 

Something else to look at is using a scan tool, look at the engine coolant temperature. If it is a cold start, it should be at ambiant temperature. If the sensor is telling the ECU the engine is very cold, it will give your symptoms. My 93 had a TSB for hard starting at high altitude cold starting. The solution was to replace the temperature sensor with a revised unit. 

So hard to diagnose when I can't see the data and perform the tests myself. 

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Oh, one thing to try, crank the engine normally for a couple seconds. Stop and while holding the throttle at wide open, crank the engine again. It should start easier since holding the throttle at WOT while cranking puts it into flood clearing mode, and shuts off the injectors. If the engine starts, releasing the key to run position puts things back to normal. 

Is the MAF and O2 sensors giving correct readings to the ECU?

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