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[UPDATED 05/09/15] Automakers to gearheads: Stop repairing cars


RedPath88
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Which is odd, because my parents have a 2005 maxima with the VQ35, and it burns zero oil between 5000km changes...It has almost 300,000km and the only thing I've changed is the brakes a couple times, both front ball joints, and the timing chain, was done by the dealer.

 

You could go with volkswagen. My brother has a 2004 golf that so far has had the front control arms replaced, the flex pipe, the ignition pack cracked and caused the car to misfire when damp outside, lower motor mount failed, the water pump has gone twice now (first time dealer changed it, this time I did), the radiator has been replaced, the rear struts are leaking, and the front brake calipers have been changed as well. The car has 170,000km, do the math for miles. It has zero rust and has been oil sprayed since its been in the family. Oh and the starter has been replaced too. Oh, and the keyfobs stopped working which required a 300 dollar repair from VW. But hey, it's that german "driving experience".

 

Okay, back on topic now...

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BMW. They are maintenance free for the first three years-everything

 

 

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Haha, I think you've got it backwards, they have free maintenance, meaning their warranty covers everything including tires for three years. Not that they go three years before maintenance. I like the idea but after that, and the regular power train warranty is up, you're up a creek. I have several buddies with newer BMWs, they're all maintenance pigs. The 80s-early 90s ones, pretty much any pre-VANOS/Bangle can be pretty reliable minus the bespoke M cars. In general BMWs and Mercedes won't leave you stranded very often, but the 8,000,000 other sensors, servos, and clips to make all the "luxury" features work break consistently. I think people tend not to realize that sure you can pick up a nice used Mercedes for $6,000, which is about $40,000 cheaper than new. But it's assumed by the automaker that the owner will always be able to afford a $45,000 car, and the maintenance and parts cost reflects that. That and a lot of components are needlessly complex, and the engineers don't think about shade tree mechanics, only their dealers who can charge whatever they want for service. That applies to a lot of the industry right now.

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No sir not backwards. Maintenance free for the first three years of ownership. Everything is covered. Very direct statement. When the VQ's burn oil is because of the compression rings collapsing and the blow by eats up the oil rings. From what I have seen it is due to lack of maintenance or abuse. Nissan uses a Crome ring with a special coating on the cylinder walls that do not seat properly. Of there is exceptions. The R50 had a break down and your mad at Nissan? When cars break they don't run right. So yours broke like all cars break so either don't drive it or get it fixed

 

 

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A lot of early VQ owners had oil consumption issues. So far my '04 is doing well. 3,000 miles and the oil is perfectly full and hardly even colored. The engine has 102k on it.

 

Of all the German stuff I tend to give BMW the most credit for reliability, second to the pre-90s Mercedes. My mom's '02 4.4i had 153k on it when she sold it and never once had a check engine light. She owned it since 102k. I had to replace the water pump, radiator, upper radiator spider hose, coolant level sensor, clean the washer fluid pump screen, the stereo amp due to a clogged sunroof drain which flooded the LR panel, brakes, factory battery after 11 years, LF LCA bushing, and the transmission did let go at 136k - a domino from the torque converter going bad which she ignored. In reality that's not bad at all considering every other manufacturer out there has the same issues and often at less mileage. It was also fairly easy to work on once you remove all the plastic covers and crap. You want a real pile of crap, go buy a Volvo.

Edited by Kingman
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  • 2 weeks later...

Autoblog - Gearheads push to preserve rights to work on their own cars

 

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Gearheads push to preserve rights to work on their own cars

 

Pete Bigelow

1 day ago

 

Hundreds of independent mechanics, gearheads and automotive enthusiasts have come together and implored the US Copyright office to protect their right to repair cars.

 

A period to comment on the proposed exemptions closed April 30, and this week the Copyright Office released the latest comments, which come from large organizations and individual citizens alike. A broad majority of those who wrote support an exemption.

 

"For over a century many American motorists have maintained and personalized their cars or trucks," wrote AAA, the nation's largest motoring organization. "They do so to save money, to fix a problem, to adjust a vehicle to better meet their driving needs, or simply because they enjoy working on the vehicle that they own. This sort of 'tinkering' is a critical element of the American car culture. Failure to recognize an exemption threatens this part of our car culture."

 

What's changed over the past century is that cars aren't just mechanical in nature anymore. Whether drivers realize it or not, today's cars are largely controlled by dozens of small computers called electronic control units. In this copyright dust-up, automakers and equipment manufacturers have argued the software and code that run these ECUs are proprietary and protected by copyright law.

 

In short, they don't want outsiders messing around with that coding, and believe unauthorized modifications could lead to malfunctions and car accidents. The Copyright Office will hold hearings on several proposed exemptions later this month, and decisions are expected sometime in June or July.

 

At stake is whether home mechanics can continue to fix cars in their own garages. But the possible restrictions don't only affect car enthusiasts. More broadly, the ruling could affect whether consumers can continue to choose their own mechanics. Should the Copyright Office deny an exemption to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act's Section 1201, automakers could only authorize repairs at dealerships or sell the access codes necessary to repair cars to preferred service shops.

 

In arguing against an exemption, John Deere and General Motors have argued that motorists don't necessarily buy a car; they merely buy a license to use the car for the duration of its life.

 

Officials from iFixit, an online, do-it-yourself repair manual for thousands of products, wrote that the manufacturers are "trying to eviscerate the notion of ownership." In their detailed rebuttal to John Deere, they wrote, "Old MacDonald has a tractor but he really only owns a 2,000-pound barn ornament. ... Their argument runs completely at odds with an owner's property rights. And it gives manufacturers undue control over the physical objects they sell to consumers."

 

Members of the Specialty Equipment Market Association, better known as SEMA in most automotive circles, ostensibly have the most to lose if the Copyright Office doesn't grant an exemption. The trade organization represents roughly 6,800 companies that create aftermarket automotive products. In comments, SEMA noted that dozens of features now considered standard on cars, such as cruise control and retractable seat belts, started with innovators outside the industry.

 

"Critically important, and now taken for granted, many safety advances originated in the hobbyist community independent of the automakers," SEMA officials wrote. "In each case, it had been necessary for the 'tinkerer' to understand how the vehicle operated in order to achieve the desired results." In an era of more complex software, SEMA said, "the need for access free of any cloud created by the DMCA is more vital than ever.

 

Congress passed the DMCA in 1998, long before most people conceived the legislation could someday apply to vehicles. Every three years, the Copyright Office holds hearings to determine whether exemptions are warranted as technology advances. This year, there are 27 different proposed exemptions, and a half-dozen apply to the automotive realm. They cover preserving access for security and safety research, jailbreaking mobile devices, diagnosing vehicle software and several similar categories.

 

Though the specifics change per each specific proposal, the general contentions are the same. So are the frustrations of gearheads. While large organizations detailed their support for exemptions in comprehensive remarks, Alabama resident Drayton Green cut through the legalities and delivered a blunt assessment of potential restrictions.

 

"This has to be one of the dumbest things I've heard," he wrote to the Copyright Office. "I can't believe this is even a discussion. If I purchase a car, I own it. The freedom to do whatever I want to it is provided by my constitutional rights. Simple as that."

 

____________________

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I work at a large dealership. I can see the angle they are trying to use and understand it but I don't agree with it. Shops are just going to have to start ponying up the cash to get the specialized equipment, training and permissions to continue to fix modern vehicles.

 

Fun fact: Our technicians cost an average of $135,000 to train from apprentice to Master Certified Chrysler Technician.

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we live in a really strange world.... I'll leave it at that....

 

I like this part : <<< "This has to be one of the dumbest things I've heard," he wrote to the Copyright Office. "I can't believe this is even a discussion. If I purchase a car, I own it. The freedom to do whatever I want to it is provided by my constitutional rights. Simple as that." >>>

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I work at a large dealership. I can see the angle they are trying to use and understand it but I don't agree with it. Shops are just going to have to start ponying up the cash to get the specialized equipment, training and permissions to continue to fix modern vehicles.

 

Isn't that what this is about, them trying to say that you don't have the right... or "permission" to work on it. Shop or not.

It may start with the consumer, but don't doubt that once they get a little, they will take more.

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The achilles heel of BMW is the cooling system. People say anywhere from 60-80k is the life span. That number is not quite accurate. I say that because I just picked up a Z3(only because I got such a good deal) with 130k on it and I noticed the radiator is now starting to go. BMW's cooling system is about 30psi.

 

Back on topic, so I can understand the dealers concern, but it doesn't make sense. Granted I wouldn't waste money on a new car. I purchase something, but it isn't mine? So does that mean I can't put different wheels on it? If you want to get stupid one probably couldn't put seat covers on. Technically you are altering the factory seat.

 

I have other stupid ideas but I would rather not put them on a public forum. Not to be paranoid but you never know who is poking around and where.

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Rant on,

 

Just because someone works at a dealer, doesn't mean they are any good. When I worked at a dealer, parts dept, I knew more than some of the techs. Sometimes parts were redesigned and instructions were included. You might be surprising how many of them wouldn't read the directions or not be intuitive enough to figure it out.

 

So to say that the dealer knows more than we do, I think is funny. They may have the fancy tools that we don't, but I think most of us do quite well without the tools.

 

Rant off.

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Unless I have the wrong idea copyright infringement. It only applies to something copied, exactly, and sold for profit. So I think they are reaching, a lot, for copyright issues.

 

All we are doing is fixing what is broken, or replacing broken items. I'm not buying the copyright thing.

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Isn't that what this is about, them trying to say that you don't have the right... or "permission" to work on it. Shop or not.

It may start with the consumer, but don't doubt that once they get a little, they will take more.

 

Many of the repairs to current model year Chrysler vehicles require software updates to complete. These updates are only available through Chrysler's portal called DealerConnect and TechConnect. Unless you work at a dealership, you have to pay for a 48 hour window in which you can access these websites and obtain the software needed. Many independent shops refuse to pay the money required to do that.

 

So basically, many shops simply cannot fix modern vehicles because they do not have the knowledge, equipment or permissions to do it.

Edited by XSrcing
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That is different that the way you said it before, this is not permission to work on a vehicle, it is access to software updates. I get software updates I took my Lincoln in to have the AdvanceTrac module re-flashed and had no problem doing so. But since my car still drove fine without it, it was completely voluntary.

 

If they would standardize on a platform this would not be as big of an issue, but why would they do that when they can keep it all proprietary and force the use of their costly services. And possibly even make it illegal to do otherwise.

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Hey guys, sorry I know there are a lot of sub topics related to the original being discussed here but my comment goes directly to the original topic:

 

SO I guess the auto makers are delibrately overlooking the fact that the Ford Focus, Acura TSX, Honda Civic Si, Mazdaspeed 3, (FORD Mustang with a turbo charged 4cyl engine making 300 hp!?) and all the Furious movies were a direct, Line of Sight result of gearheads working on and modifying cars all through the 90s and 2000s.

 

Then you can look at the American muscle car segment. We would NOT have a Charger/Challenger Hellcat if guys haven't been building up various sizes of v8 engines and running them down the strip for the last 60 years.

 

That's frigging rediculous, automakers owe all the gearhead fanatics bigtime for ideas and innovations that they looked at the things that people were doing just did them on a more produced scale. That's not even to mention all the autoparts stores and areas of support that sprouted up around Joe Wrench-Turner.

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