piste Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) Here's the story...'97 SE OR Manual with about 150K miles.....am original owner and gave it meticulous maint since day one. Took it to the local ski mountain on Sunday...about an hour and 15 minutes away mostly highway. Didn't move it all day Monday and we got snow Mon night such that it created a thin layer of blown snow under the Pathy. Started it up this morning (Tues) and after moving it I noticed some yellowish green liquid in the snow...def looks like coolant. It was only a few drops in two places..did not see any "stream" of drips from moving it etc. So seems like what came out was the result of what accumulated in the exhaust over 48 hrs or so. The front tires left a mark on the ground so I measured off of that to the coolant and then took those measurements under the pathy and it looks like it's leaking from the front and rear of the muffler(not the resonator). There was only a little bit of coolant..and after letting it sit some more and then starting up again and letting it run didn't see ANY more. So I'm guessing this is the beginning of a head gasket leak? Would be a shame as I just decided this year to stick it out with the Pathy for many more years. Any rough estimates on what a head gasket job runs for $$$? Any chance I don't have a boatload to worry about? Edited February 23, 2011 by piste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beastpath Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Garage quoted me 8-900 for my head gasket minimum. I did it myself for 200 + cos of some tools, so maybe 300, and leaned a hell of a lot about the engine. I got lucky and caught it in the early stages, but even if it is only doing it a tiny bit I wouldn't run the engine as it could ruin your bottom end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamzan Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Before assuming the worst I would get it pressure tested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krmiller07 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 In addition to a pressure check, I'd also check the oil. If it's a milky color then you most likely have coolant in it. It may also show up in the coolant. Oil and water do NOT mix.! Sometimes I've been able to determine if there's water in the oil by pulling the dip stick. Water will usually 'bead' up on the dip stick, indicating it's presence. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel595 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 if you were getting straight dripps of coolant out of the exhaust you would definitely see white smoke and lots out the tail pipe... warning dont eat the yellow snow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewebster Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Rust? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piste Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Garage quoted me 8-900 for my head gasket minimum. I did it myself for 200 + cos of some tools, so maybe 300, and leaned a hell of a lot about the engine. I got lucky and caught it in the early stages, but even if it is only doing it a tiny bit I wouldn't run the engine as it could ruin your bottom end. Interesting....I tried this..www.repairpal.com/estimator and came out with an estimate of between $1,900 and $2,400 with all of it labor except about $300 or so. How can it be that much? I thought you could do an entire engine rebuild for less than that. FWIW the color of the leaking fluid looked like pure coolant (ie. did not appear to be contaiminated with anything else like oil or anything. Also, it was a very small amount and appeared to drip from the front and rear edges of the muffler. And also I took the same trip skiing yesterday...then started her up this morning and didn't see a single drop of anything on the ground. So wondering if what appears to be an infrequent and relatively small amount of coolant getting into the exhaust is anything to worry about? At least not until it becomes anything greater than that!!? Not seeing any unusual amounts of smoke in the exhaust nor any other problems that I know of. I'll have to keep an eye on the exhaust though...I do get some "whiteness" on startup but I don't know that it's "smoke" per se....always just thought it was normal for winter time. I'm a driveway mechanic and confidant to do many things on my own but I put replacing head gaskets in the "open heart surgery" category of repairs that is not for the faint of heart. It's also a matter of consuming my time. What tools did you have to acquire? I have quite a bit of tools already and have done quite a bit of things like suspension work, brakes, rebuilt the front end of my old Bronco, replaced various bushings..steering rack, rear trailing arms, sway bars...etc. I have the FSM...any other resources or references you could point me to? Another question...Whether I do the job or not...If one has to replace head gaskets what other things should be replaced/done along the way? Timing belt/water pump/Tstat? (EDIT - never mind on the Tbelt question...just learned it has to come off to do the head gasket) And should I replace all the gaskets in a kit like this whilst I have it apart? http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sku/Nissan/Pathfinder/Beck_Arnley/Cylinder_Head_Gasket/1997/SE/6_Cyl_3-dot-3L/032-2892.html?tlc=Engine+%26+Drivetrain&intcmpid= Edited February 24, 2011 by piste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piste Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 Rust? Sorry but don't understand the question..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamzan Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) I think he meant is it rust water just dripping out? Did you smell the substance? If it didn't smell sweet than it is not coolant. Mine drips water out of the muffler all the time. Edited February 24, 2011 by adamzan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piste Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 Before assuming the worst I would get it pressure tested. What do you mean by "assuming the worst"? I mean...I definitely saw coolant on the ground and it dripped from the muffler after the car sat for two days. I mean...are you saying coolant in the exhaust be a result of leakage somewhere other than the head gasket? ie. some other gasket or seal? Curious as to how "involved" is a pressure test? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piste Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 I think he meant is it rust water just dripping out? Did you smell the substance? If it didn't smell sweet than it is not coolant. Mine drips water out of the muffler all the time. Ahh...not familiar with the concept of "rust water". I presume it would be brown...ish? I did not smell it....What I DO know is the color of glycol coolant and that's exactly the color I saw under the vehicle. Primarily yellow with a hint of green. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamzan Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) What do you mean by "assuming the worst"? I mean...I definitely saw coolant on the ground and it dripped from the muffler after the car sat for two days. I mean...are you saying coolant in the exhaust be a result of leakage somewhere other than the head gasket? ie. some other gasket or seal? Curious as to how "involved" is a pressure test? Thanks! What I meant was to get it tested first. Sorry if I was rude. I've never done the test myself but it only cost me 50 dollars to have a shop do it. And by "rust water" I meant rusty water. Spelling FAIL. If you see the stuff on the ground again smell it. Edited February 24, 2011 by adamzan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piste Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 What I meant was to get it tested first. Sorry if I was rude. I've never done the test myself but it only cost me 50 dollars to have a shop do it. And by "rust water" I meant rusty water. Spelling FAIL. If you see the stuff on the ground again smell it. No worries...you didn't come across rude at all. I don't see that it could be anything other than coolant..but will do the sniff test if I see it again. I was actually surprised how much it looked exactly like coolant...it had the color as if one had poured coolant straight onto the ground...would have thought it'd pick up a rusty tinge in its travels. Was also interesting to me that it dripped from the front and rear edges of the muffler and only there. I get condensate out the tail pipe..who doesn't? and will test that for color next time I can get to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piste Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 Just checked the FSM. There is NFW on god's green earth that I'd do the head gaskets myself. I won't even do a timing belt...which only gets ya started toward the head gaskets. Just not in a position in life to commit the time. A man's gotta know his limitations..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel595 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 if your really afraid its coolant you can taste it (a small amount wont hurt) it will taste bitter. the easiest way to see if your loosing coolant mark your coolant resevoir with a sharpie in the morning and then after you go driving for some bit check your level and make sure you park in the same spot and check when your engine is cold again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piste Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 if your really afraid its coolant you can taste it (a small amount wont hurt) it will taste bitter. the easiest way to see if your loosing coolant mark your coolant resevoir with a sharpie in the morning and then after you go driving for some bit check your level and make sure you park in the same spot and check when your engine is cold again Thx. I'm certain it is coolant...there can't possibly be anything else that looks the EXACT same color as coolant dripping from the muffler. My only outstanding questions at this point is could it have gotten there by something OTHER than a leaking head gasket? And also I need to "profile" it a bit more for frequency...extent of coolant loss, degree of smoke in the exhaust gases, etc. I'll also keep an eye on coolant level as you suggest. FWIW I had a coolant flush done about 6 months ago...but don't see how that would play into things one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewebster Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Yeah, I just meant rusty water dripping out, but seems that's not it. I guess there could be some other ways of getting coolant into the exhaust... cracked block or head, blown intake gasket I guess since there are coolant channels there too... I don't think replacing head gaskets is really that big of a deal... but I mean, it is definitely a bunch of work if you haven't done it before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krmiller07 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 WOW...let's back up here a moment and think about all that has been described. A) you've got something dripping out of the exhaust system after sitting for a few days! It 'looks' like coolant, but you can't confirm that. If coolant made it that far back into the exhaust system without burning the 'normal' cloud of white smoke. I would think you'd be seeing A LOT more coolant leaking from somewhere else or the engine would be running rough or even possibly HYDRO LOCK the engine. If you go to Napa or some other auto parts store, many times they will rent a coolant pressure gauge too you for testing. The idea behind this is simple. Attach the test gauge to the filler on the radiator, pump the system up until it registers on the gauge, and wait and see if the needle on the gauge starts dropping OR you can spot any leaks around the hose connections, water pump or ANYWHERE else. These are the OBVIOUS signs! Thats not to mean it can't still be leaking very gradually internally. I had the heads replaced on my 89 a few years ago, and both my heads were cracked. It didn't leak any coolant into the oil, nor did it belch white smoke out the tail pipe. They were cracked on the outside of the combustion chambers on the exhaust sides. If it leaked. it probably dribbled down the side of the block and burned off on the hot exhaust manifolds. I'm thinking you've simply got some condensation that formed in the exhaust system and it leaking from the lowest point, it may have mixed with the carbon build up inside the tail pipe giving it the 'Rusty' appearance. Another option would be to pull apart the exhaust and see how much liquid drains out? Pull the spark plugs and check their appearance ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piste Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 krmiller07, Thanks for all the valuable insights and suggestions...I clearly need to do some more diagnostics as well as continued observations over time..check current oil color/consistency, etc. Allow me to provide a very precise description. The profile of what I observed is very perplexing to me. As stated I took a trip in the Pathy to go skiing Sunday roughly a bit over an hour from my house. did not drive it at all Monday. Tues morning after clearing the 8 inches of snow from the driveway I started it and within a minute or so of starting moved the Pathy to the street. When I walked back to the driveway where the Pathy had sat for the few days I observed two distinct spots in the snow(two and only two spots) of a yellowish green liquid with a hint of fluorescence (NOT rust colored at all). Being as the spots were in the snow that fell the night before...I know the leakage happened upon or immediately after startup (ie. it was NOT a slow drip that happened over the two days). To roughly quantify an amount... I would say the "forward" spot was say 20 drops worth and the aft spot was maybe 10 drops worth. Both were more than a single drop or two and neither was like a "puddle's worth". Being as there were only the two spots and NOT a stream created upon moving the vehicle...I conclude the coolant "blew/leaked out" upon startup or shortly thereafter. I then measured the distance to the spots from the front tire imprint..measured the forward spot about 6 feet back and aft spot another 14 inches (muffler length) or so behind the first spot...both spots about a foot inboard from the passenger side. I went out to the street and translated those measurements to the underbody which brought me to the fore and after edges of the muffler. I saw liquid dripping from both the fore and aft edges of the muffler...and also interestingly from the axle as well interestingly...but believe stuff coming from the axle was just condensation....no colored spots on the ground below that. Ambient conditions were of VERY high humidity due to the storm. I was not smart enough to test the color of the liquid dripping from the vehicle at the time. My big questions are....Given the amount of what appears to be coolant that dripped from the muffler...How does THAT much coolant make it's way back (past y-pipes, cats, etc) to the muffler whilst sitting?? Because whilst the vehicle was running on the highway and at full operating temp I would thing anything leaking into the exhaust would vaporize right away. Could it have been coolant that had vaporized and then subsequently condensed and dripped out? What's also very unusual to me is that this morning on startup...ZERO signs of smoke/steam/condensate drip out the tail pipe...and zero drops of anything on the ground (can't crawl under to peak at the exhaust during the week in the suit and tie). It's not like a gasket or seal opens up for a while to allow that much liquid out and then closes itself up. Lastly, with respect to identifying the liquid...I was not able to collect a sample for chemical analysis....but it is virtually impossible IMO that what I saw in the snow was anything other than coolant....unless anyone knows of ANY other liquid in the vehicle at all that even closely resembles coolant..much less has the identical yellowish green fluorescent appearance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krmiller07 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Actually, your engine (block, etc.. and transmission) do expand and contract with outside temperatures as well as operating temps. So it could conceivably leak after completely cooling off and sitting for a few days. Although ideally, you shouldn't have any leaks, regardless of operating and outdoor temperatures ! Seals and gaskets also tend to deteriorate with age and temperature fluctuations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel595 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 when you turn your car off thats when it is the hottest and if your cap isnt bleeding off right it will tend to leak at the weak point if its a head gasket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12A Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 does the car missfire on startup? does the temp get hot on the gauge? does the overflow bottle bubble? is it difficult to start? do the radiator hoses get pressurised in the first 20 seconds? is there a sparkplug that is discoloured to the others? i doubt EXTREMELY that you have a headgasket issue. the idea of coolant going through all the mufflers etc then out the rear of the exhaust without other issues, to make you think you have a headgasket issue is inconceiveable in my head. even a coolant leak into the intake manifold wouldnt cause coolant to be in the exhaust without some other much more noticeable problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piste Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 does the car missfire on startup? does the temp get hot on the gauge? does the overflow bottle bubble? is it difficult to start? do the radiator hoses get pressurised in the first 20 seconds? is there a sparkplug that is discoloured to the others? i doubt EXTREMELY that you have a headgasket issue. the idea of coolant going through all the mufflers etc then out the rear of the exhaust without other issues, to make you think you have a headgasket issue is inconceiveable in my head. even a coolant leak into the intake manifold wouldnt cause coolant to be in the exhaust without some other much more noticeable problem. no misfire...engine purrs like a kitty at ALL times temp is ALWAYS normal and steady need to check overflow bottle but doubt it starts right up like a champ EVERY time not sure on the hoses will need to check the plugs when time and weather permit But again to clarify...the coolant was NOT observed coming out the tail pipe. It was dripping from the muffler itself (NOT resonator). And because of the virgin white snow on the ground I was able to get an ideal read on the color..confirming to me short of chemical analysis that it WAS coolant. I'm very much with you on your thinking here. the one time nature of it is what's got me really perplexed as well. While I realize some conditions can be variable....it's very difficult for me to conceive a head gasket allowing all that coolant through and then somehow sealing itself up. I'm ignorant of all the paths and channels that coolant would take through a block, head, etc. What I don't know is.....Is there ANY other seal or gasket (OTHER THAN A HEAD GASKET) the failure or compromise of which would allow either coolant in either liquid or gaseous form into the exhaust? I got to thinking maybe some coolant is being vaporized into the exhaust system and then when the vehicle cooled it condensed out...then found the low point in the muffler..and blew/dripped itself out when I started the vehicle and the exhaust was pressurized a bit. I really wonder if the ambient weather played a factor here. It was extremely humid...first time in years the snow was so moist that it gave me trouble in the snowblower...big stretch I know but I'm stumped. I agree with you that it's highly unlikely to be a head gasket issue...given the meticulous care this Pathy has gotten from it's very first day on the road almost 14 years ago...combined with the reputation of the VG33 for NOT having head gasket issues....combined with the unusual diagnostic observations so far. But I don't have any other idea for how the coolant got there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamzan Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Have you done the pressure test yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krmiller07 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 when you turn your car off thats when it is the hottest and if your cap isn't bleeding off right it will tend to leak at the weak point if its a head gasket If it's hot,and the cap is operating properly. It will purge into the recovery tank. When it cools down the natural vacuum effect will pull it back into the coolant system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now