Terrano1992 Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Been doing some "Googling" trying to find "Repair Oil Seals" - all I get is "Repair: Oil Seals"...merde.I did find a link to BARS products which claims to "Seal Oil Leaks" on rear main seals... Ever tried that stuff ? These chemicals are intended for old, "petrified" oil seals renewal (softening of rubber is a main principle). In your case (when you have a leak through a new, already soft seal) they can't effectively help. Also, they do nothing with leaky cardboard gaskets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) Oh my God in Heaven ! I ran an angled, pointed Radiator pick from the back of the Crankshaft slot to the front and there is a circular groove in there as deep as the grand canyon ! About 2 mm from the back of the shaft hole. I am going to try to make an "Impression" of the shaft surface with some soft wax on a popcycle stick. I am cooling the wax on the popcycle stick stuck to a flat plastic ruler in the freezer right now. I'll spray some WD-40 in the shaft so the wax doesn't stick, shove it in the slot and press down, then pull it out so I can photograph it under side lighting. I want to SEE this groove. God %$@* it....no wonder it was leaking like a sieve ! Terrano1992 - you are incredible ! All the time I wasted on something that wouldn't have been fixed by changing Oil Seals. I wonder if a repair shop would have caught on to this ? Edited at 11 AM - I made two impressions - one with Candle Wax and one with Tacky Putty used on bulletin boards. Neither worked exactly as I wanted, but they show how deep the groove is and approximately where. If this was caused by abrasive material in the oil - did the previous owners never change the Oil ? I wonder if the bearings are shot, too ? See folks - now you know WHy you need to religiously change your oil and filter ! Crvett69 informs me that there is a quick repair for this ! Have a look ! Speedi-Sleeve Shaft Repair Kits He says the Schuck's Part Number is SKF 99331...probably have to order it, though. Man - there isn't anything automotive that Crvett69 doesn't know about ! Amazing ! Added thought later....Noon ...this brings to mind another nice problem, doesn't it.... The Rear Crankshaft Oil Seal is probably in the same situation.... Is it too early in the day for a Beer...or three ? Merde. DoctorBill Edited August 23, 2009 by DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrano1992 Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I made two impressions - one with Candle Wax and one with Tacky Putty used on bulletin boards.Neither worked exactly as I wanted, but they show how deep the groove is and approximately where. Seems very strange. Too deep and wide to be a wear track. Moreover, it is placed too far from outside end of crankstaft neck. Standard seal has 8 mm total height - so, distance from front plane of seal to the lip edge will be 6-7 mm... You need more accurate measurements to be sure were the lip places (on a groove, or not). I can't say this is a wear track or a machined groove right now. Anyway, you can try to purchase a "thin" (7 mm height) seal (Payen NJ368 or any other 47x33x7 mm) and check how it fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) No sooner said, than done ! How's that ? The Beck/Arnley Seal is 6.9 mm thick and the Nissan Seal is 7.1 mm thick - used my digital reloading micrometer. I would guess that neither Oil Seal lip was riding on that groove....cute ! Probably rides about 5 mm in from the front lip of the Shaft when the Oil Seal is even with the shaft opening. Back to square one - "do not pass go, do not collect pay....." DoctorBill Edited August 23, 2009 by DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrano1992 Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I would guess that neither Oil Seal lip was riding on that groove.... I agree. This is machined groove, not a wear trace of lip. So, this is irrelevant to oil leak. Try to install new oil seal carefully (without any damages of a lip edge). Use "margarine container tool" to safely slip a seal edge on a crankshaft neck, and suitable drift (a piece of plastic or metal tube with 45-48 mm outer diameter) to gently press seal into the hole. Also, you can use petroleum jelly ("vaseline") instead of motor oil to lubricate shaft, "margarine tool" and seal. I think it will be more convenient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 Then what ? It will still be leaking. From where and why ? The oil is essentailly "dumping" out, yet I can't find from where. Damn. DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magregor Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I would definitely try seal first, since you have the tear-down and putting back together down to a science I believe it was just the seal being the issue. It doesn't take much for the oil to find a spot to bleed out, as it runs at about 40-50 psi in pressure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) The Oil seal Tampon Placement Method (Magregor's method) - my name for it ! I had a piece of blue polyethylene plastic I had cut from a Baby Wipes container years ago - to mix Epoxy on - Epoxy won't stick to it. The plastic was washed well and rolled up and held with several rubber bands. Slid the Oil Seal over the rolled up plastic tube and buttered the one end with some Vaseline and put some on the Oil Seal also. I took a couple of the rubber bands off because the Oil Seal held the shape. One end of the rolled tube was then forced into a cone shape (one end larger than the other) wherein the larger end just fit over the Crankshaft where the Oil Seal goes. I then slowly pushed the Oil Seal over the rolled plastic onto the shaft. Be careful to hold the plastic well and don't let it come off the Crankshaft lip ! It wants to ! In the Photo below, I had already slid the Oil Seal on. The plastic roll is just sitting on the Crankshaft below - an 'after the fact' photo. I then "squared up" the Oil Seal with whatever I could find - in this case the end of a plastic gas can of just the proper dimensions to allow me to tap the Oil Seal into place. The Seal is not yet squared up in the picture....it is flat in there now - trust me ! Conclusion - This Oil Seal Tampon Method works nicely. Vaseline is VERY slippery ! It helped. Perhaps I should call it "The Oil Seal Suppository Method !" I just wish you guys had told me of this method BEFORE I did the first one...! DoctorBill Edited August 23, 2009 by DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magregor Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Let's just call it the "magregor seal installation tool" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) I keep getting surprised by this vehicle. Probably just my inexperience. While smoking a cigar and contemplating my toes, I decided to go back to the TALCUM POWDER method of looking for where the oil is leaking... So, I started cleaning up the oil and Spray 'n Seal (had to use Brake Cleaning Fluid) and after that decided I had better attempt to tighten those 3 +1 bolts across the top of the Oil Pump - again. Several days ago they were tight ! Just now, I started (left to right) to tighten them and they seemed quite loose ! No Sh*t...the Left one which I couldn't move a couple of days ago was fairly easy to tighten (loose) and so on - each getting tighter as I moved to the right. I was even able to tighten #4, that 12 mm Bolt that holds the Alternator Tensioner Bracket ! It had been tightened quite well a couple of days ago... WTF ? Will they be loose again in a couple of days ? ! How did they get loose in the first place ? All of those Bolts go into the STEEL Engine Block - yes ? I am worried that I might be tightening them too much if into Aluminum. Don't want to strip out any Aluminum Threads.... What is this all about ? Is the moon's phase different today ? Yes, of course it is.... Anyway - they are quite tight now, as far as feel goes. The Oil Seal is in. Soon I will powder it's front end and reassemble the Belts...for the 5th (?) time... I remember that someone said to loosen all the Bolts and then re-tighten them. There must have been a good rationale for that. Don't remember. Live and learn. I hope that whoever is reading this excretiably long diatribe will get some insight into the little goofy things that can happen and avoid them when they do this job. I seem to be stumbling over every rock on the path. DoctorBill Edited August 24, 2009 by DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 If the right side was loose, and you tightened them up, it may have brought the left side down as well., thus "loosening" the bolts. Things like this should be checked a couple times to ensure that all the bolts are tight across the gasket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 Crvett69 just reminded me that he had suggested loosening and retightening bolts. I know someone on this Forum had suggested that, also. Well I sure do pay attention well, don't I ? Reminds me of - "I see!" said the blind man. "You're a liar!" said the fool. So...conclusion: Loosen bolts because they may have rusted or just seized up and "trying the tightness" of them can be misleading - the bolt could be "Loose" as regards holding the item tight, yet the threads locked up and it won't turn easily. Once loosened up, then retighten to the proper torque setting. This is all news to me. Had never heard of that before.... With that in mind, a while ago, after tightening the Oil Pump Bolts (and finding them not so tight), I wondered about the Water Pump (which I replaced) Bolts....so checked 'em. I was able to tighten them also another quarter turn. My only concern, then, is when are the Bolts tight ? But - given that I was able to tighten both the Oil and Water Pump Bolts, will I still have a leak tomorrow after reassembling the Belts.... Stay tuned, folks - the 'waskally wabbit' is still out there..... DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrano1992 Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Several days ago they were tight !Just now, I started (left to right) to tighten them and they seemed quite loose ! You had to loose all these bolts before applying "Spray'n'Seal" (to allow sealant wick into the gasket). Do you remember to retighten them next day, after sealant curing? WTF ? Will they be loose again in a couple of days ? ! How did they get loose in the first place ? No, they did not get loose if the gasket is well compressed now. All of those Bolts go into the STEEL Engine Block - yes ?I am worried that I might be tightening them too much if into Aluminum. VG30i/E has cast iron engine block, not aluminium. You'll probably break the overtightened bolt before you strip the threads. If you are in some doubt, you can twist off completely 2 small (#2 and #3) M6 bolts to inspect them. Do it one by one, not both together. If they are stretched from previous overtightening (M6 bolts are relatively soft, even if they are 7-th or 8-th Grade), replace them with a new (7-th Grade minimum, see mark on the head). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 they are tight when they all are torqued to spec (+ a couple pounds), Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 WTF ? Will they be loose again in a couple of days ? ! How did they get loose in the first place ? Sounds like you have some weasely democratic varmints lurking in the tall grass who sneak in at night and randomly loosen bolts. I recommend napalm... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) I need some help. When I took the TB off this last time, the marks were 'helterskelter'. I need to get all three timing marks back to where they should be. All The Bolts are tightened down now (for the 3rd time) and everthing Talcum Powdered. I turned the Crankshaft Clockwise to the Timing Mark and piston #1 is at TDC. Turned R3 clockwise to the Timing Mark (11 O'clock) position (no Back Cover Plate in yet). But L3 is at the 9 O'clock position and doesn't want to turn clockwise past about the 11 O'clock position. I am worried that valves may be contacting Pistons on the Left side Head (facing forward) - L3 Pulley. Could this be true ? Don't want to force anything....L3 furned fairly easily before ! Should I turn L3 counterclockwise back to the Timing mark at 1 O'Clock ? If it goes Counterclockwise to the Timing Mark w/o and difficulty, that shouldn't hurt anything should it - all the head components are symmetrical - not "One way only".... Waiting for some advice before continuing knowing that I am not knowledgable enough to chew gum properly. DoctorBill Edited August 24, 2009 by DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 turn your crankshaft so you are not at TDC. back it off about 1/4 stroke. This should be enough to make clearance for the valves. Put R3 and L3 where they need to eb then put the crankshaft back at TDC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 OK - will turn CS and L3 until lined up....just being careful ! Must go into town for some House Siding materials first (nails, slats, etc ) - probably have an answer to whether the Pathy leaks or not tonight. Pray for it... DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackspawn Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 I need some help. When I took the TB off this last time, the marks were 'helterskelter". DoctorBill How did that happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) How did that happen? When I killed the engine, I didn't make any effort to get the Cam Pulley marks to the R3/L3 positions, nor the Damper pulley mark back to TDC. Thus....when I went back to put the timing belt on this morning, the pulleys were not where they should be when applying the TB. Now, I'll bet I know what you are thinking - just put the TB back on 'cause the Pulleys are where they were when it stopped - all lined up. Yes....? What if one of the cam pulleys had moved - as they are apt to do ? If I put a TB on, it will be with all the marks where they should be w/o relying on things to have not moved at some time. With an engine's well being on the line - I will be safe - not sorry. "So let it be written, so let it be done." Rameses III Besides, Precise1, who knows - maybe some waskawe Democrat varmint, lurking in the shrubbery, slunk in during the night and moved a pulley....cause this is a big 'ol nasty, gas guzzling, SUV type conservative's vehicle and I should be punished for owning it. Think of all the Polar Bears suffering because we Pathinder owners are a pollutin' an' a shootin' ! DoctorBill Edited August 24, 2009 by DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackspawn Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 guess we skipped the old take out the spark plugs deal, huh?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 Oh you darn betcha ! I hate messing with those damned spark plugs ! I would rather listen to an hour of "Obama Speak" than take out those plugs! If I can turn the Crankshaft Damper with my hands (leather work gloves on), then that's less other work to do. Funny thing - I am becoming fed up working on this thing....it is getting OLD. The crankshaft turns - not easily - but it turns. Look - it is either going to leak or it is not going to leak. Don't need Mr Spock to figure that out....This job is done. The Timing Belt change and AC Cooler addition worked out fine. The Oil Leak is a sideshow....I don't know why anyone comes back to this thread now ! DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creekkid Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 (edited) I enjoy watching the show But seriously, we keep coming back because.... 1) We all want you to get back on the road...and 2) It's educational.... ... God, I hope you figure this out soon enough. Pull the fricken spark plug and find TDC....quit pissing around it's not that hard. Edited August 25, 2009 by Creekkid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magregor Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I enjoy watching the show But seriously, we keep coming back because.... 1) We all want you to get back on the road...and 2) It's educational.... ... God, I hope you figure this out soon enough. Pull the fricken spark plug and find TDC....quit pissing around it's not that hard. Go easy on the Doc creekkid...I have been monitoring and giving POSITIVE input on this thread ever since it has started... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackspawn Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 (edited) ....I don't know why anyone comes back to this thread now ! DoctorBill I come back because this is almost like a hands on training class. Even though things are not going as plan; makes it more exciting to me. I know not to you and I'm sorry about that, but I'm learning alot!! Edited August 25, 2009 by blackspawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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