94extreme Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Key word. Those of us who do work and pay for things have no problem doing so for ourselves. But, when the government tells us we need to pay for those who won't work is when the anger comes in. Anyone can get health coverage as it is, a large number don't have it by choice because they know that there is a no denial of service clause at all ERs. So they go get a check-up, don't pay the bill, and the hospital writes it off. Then there is a small share who want to have heath insurance who can't afford it, but they still have cable TV at home and a cell phone and car payment. I'm supposed to pitty that and give up my paycheck, BS. Cut the cable, use the payphone at the corner and buy a $200 beater and get your heath insurance or efin deal! you're making huge assumptions that aren't necessarily true at all. as to itupagain.. wow.. cold hearted bas... you are.. life isn't all about you. you, you.. i hope you learn that sooner then later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beastpath Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Key word. Those of us who do work and pay for things have no problem doing so for ourselves. But, when the government tells us we need to pay for those who won't work is when the anger comes in. Anyone can get health coverage as it is, a large number don't have it by choice because they know that there is a no denial of service clause at all ERs. So they go get a check-up, don't pay the bill, and the hospital writes it off. Then there is a small share who want to have heath insurance who can't afford it, but they still have cable TV at home and a cell phone and car payment. I'm supposed to pitty that and give up my paycheck, BS. Cut the cable, use the payphone at the corner and buy a $200 beater and get your heath insurance or efin deal! x2 What 94 said. My GF didn't have health insurance for about a year because she lost her high paying job, her fiancee left her, she has a home loan, and a kid (and the guy is not paying child support). Her mother moved in with her to help with the home loan, and she got a job, but still was barely making by. She doesn't have cable, or a car payment (she does have a cell phone, but not a house phone). However, I do agree with you somewhat that people buy too much junk that they dont need instead of paying for the essentials. That said, people still deserve a decent standard of living, and what you are advocating would shrink the middle class and further the distance between the rich and the poor. I also think that a gov't health care system would cut the cost of ER visits as people would be able to go to the doctor if they had a cold instead of wasting time at the ER. Thats scoialism. I have insurance because I pay for it & in all honesty I don't care if my neighbors besideme don't have it. Hell I don't care if they suffer & die, cause I know that if my family struggles no one comes to our rescue & I don't expect anyone to. If you take care of & yours then thats all that needs to take place. I shouldn't have to be forced to take care of others & to be forced at the point of a gun (yes at the point of a gun because its money thats stolen from my income - taxes - that is used in these bullsh!t programs & if I refuse to pay taxes I am arrested & hauled off to jail - thats at the point of a gun) to contribute to charitees that I don't believe in nor do I care about. We are taught from a young age to love & care for everyone but its crap! My love & respect has to be earned not given out freely for the simple act of being born. We is the word in which the depraved steal the virtue of the good; by which the weak steal the might of the strong; by which the fools steal the wisdom of the sages. What is my joy, if all hands even the unclean can reach into it; what is my wisdom, if even the fools can dictate to me; what is my freedom, if all creatures, even the botched & the impotent are my masters; what is my life, if I am but to bow, to agree & to obey. But I am done with this creed of corruption; I am done with the monster of We. You must have few friends with such a selfish outlook on life. Tell me, would you consider the police/fire department a waste of your tax payer money? How about funding for the military? Or even such mundane things as road maintenance? How about k-12 education? All these things come from taxes "stolen" from you (Do you realize that a country is by definition a "we"? That assumes participation on many levels and also means you give up certain rights and liberties to be part of a mutually beneficial system. You know as in "We the people of the United States....") If you ever lost your job, and were unable to get another one for some reason, I hope you make sure to not accept any sort of welfare that the government provides. If your house is on fire, I'm sure the fire department would be happy to know that you don't expect or want them to come save you and your family because of your principles. And I should hope based on your principles you would never send your children to a public school to get an education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 "You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beastpath Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 who are you quoting? And don't you guys realize that most "social" programs are there for your benefit too? I am assuming most of you went through the public school system. That is a MANDATORY system in which you also have the option of private choices. In many ways similar to what Obama is attempting with health insurace. Seems to me that spreading the "wealth" of education DOES increase the wealth of the poor, and of the nation in general, and the truely rich send thier kids to private schools anyways. People will still have the option to have a private insurance company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beastpath Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 also, I don't see where this idea of a huge amount of people who refuse to work sucking up tax money is coming from. Last I heard about 10% of the population was unemployed. Before the recession it was about 5%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC88Pathy Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 also, I don't see where this idea of a huge amount of people who refuse to work sucking up tax money is coming from. Last I heard about 10% of the population was unemployed. Before the recession it was about 5%. 10% are only those who qualify for unemployment benefits. If you include seasonal workers and discouraged workers (those who have given up seeking work), the unemployment rate is actually around 15%, and if you include underemployed workers (those seeking full time work but unable to obtain it) the rate hits 24%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beastpath Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 10% are only those who qualify for unemployment benefits. If you include seasonal workers and discouraged workers (those who have given up seeking work), the unemployment rate is actually around 15%, and if you include underemployed workers (those seeking full time work but unable to obtain it) the rate hits 24%. whats the difference. if only 10% can claim benefits, the rest aren't using up tax money anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC88Pathy Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 whats the difference. if only 10% can claim benefits, the rest aren't using up tax money anyway Ah but they are still eligible for other benefits such as welfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beastpath Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Well, even so. If out of 25%: * 10% are actively seeking work, so we shall assume that as the economy gets better it will drop to 5% again. * 10% are part-time workers looking for full time, so we shall assume that when the economy gets better this will drop to 6%. * 5% cant be bothered to work or are seasonal workers, so the seasonal workers might drop a % if they get a second job or something when the economy improves. The ones who can't be bothered are...well...just bums. So say 4% So that leaves around 15% who can claim benefits. And part-time workers still pay taxes. Regardless, even if the rate is 25% true unemployment, less than 5% are just leeching off the system. The others are trying to participate in it, but can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 10% are only those who qualify for unemployment benefits. If you include seasonal workers and discouraged workers (those who have given up seeking work), the unemployment rate is actually around 15%, and if you include underemployed workers (those seeking full time work but unable to obtain it) the rate hits 24%. There would be more jobs in healthcare should everyone have access to it, which would bring down the unemployment rate nationally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammyb33 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 it will happen. the repubs are fractured badly, possibly beyond repair. Just curious, how do you figure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Universal Healthcare works in Canada, for the most part. No system encompassing an entire population will ever be perfect, and there is privatization still occurring. (Rich folks can pay for test and procedures to skip the lines) but everyone, at some point, gets taken care of. I will say that I haven't lived without a healthcare system in place, so I truly do not understand the opposition to it. I won't get into that. I appreciate that I can go to a doctor when I feel the need (and I do not abuse that right; I haven't seen a doctor in 2 years) and not have to pay for those services. We still pay for our prescriptions here, unless we have our own health plan through work, or privately purchased. That said, if I am in the hospital for anything, I'm covered. It'll be in a "semi-private" room (2-3 others in the same room) and I could upgrade to a private room for a cost. Basic needs in our healthcare system are covered. If people want more, they pay for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westslope Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 There would be more jobs in healthcare should everyone have access to it, which would bring down the unemployment rate nationally. Not sure about that. One of the advantages of the Canadian system (as is) is the fact that it produces a lot more health care bang for the buck than the American (mostly) private system does. On that criteria alone, a socialized medical system with universal coverage in the US promises to make Americans collectively richer. Socialized medicine promises more benefits for small entrepreneurs and workers for two reasons. It removes costly private health care as a barrier to entry and exit. It promises increased labour mobility which should be positive for productivity and wealth generation. Now I know that many of you are anti-entrepreneurial capitalism. I respect that. But if I understand what many American folks are saying over the last 8 years, these (numerous) Americans don't mind Americans collectively becoming less wealthy and watching the hegemonic status of their proud country decline, and with that all the privileges that come with being the undisputed top dog. All empires decline and perhaps now is the turn for the USA to decline. Man, it was good while it lasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 One of the advantages of the Canadian system (as is) is the fact that it produces a lot more health care bang for the buck than the American (mostly) private system does. But isn't that the "buying in bulk" mentality? Doctors knowing that their next paycheck is coming right after the last one, lessens the need to hike up prices. Other staff (nurses, administration, janitors) are also paid a good wage, as the healthcare system will cover the costs, so there's a bunch of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 One thing I don't like about this health care plan is how much power will be transferred to the Executive branch of the government. The powers of government will no longer be equally divided among the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beastpath Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 One thing I don't like about this health care plan is how much power will be transferred to the Executive branch of the government. The powers of government will no longer be equally divided among the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches. how so?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fukinitupagain Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 as to itupagain.. wow.. cold hearted bas... you are.. life isn't all about you. you, you.. i hope you learn that sooner then later. You are wrong with concerns of my life. My life is all for me; I don't live for anyone else nor would I expect anyone else to live for me. You might, but I don't... You must have few friends with such a selfish outlook on life. There are a ton of people that I am aquantences with but there are few people I have chosen as my real friends. You people say selffish as if its a bad thing, like its wrong to care for yourself & to want to look out for whats yours (family/friends). This business of wanting to help everyone is for the birds. If you want to help everyone go ahead but don't tell me I should. Tell me, would you consider the police/fire department a waste of your tax payer money? How about funding for the military? Or even such mundane things as road maintenance? How about k-12 education? All these things come from taxes "stolen" from you And unitl the late 30's these were taken care of by mainly imports & exports. Our current tax (state/federal income) system was only meant to be temporary but our goverment realized that people weren't fighting it & would continue to allow the goverment to take money that they earn. I'd have no problem with say something like the Fair Tax. Thats a tax based on how much I spend on things that are non essentials (Food, water & housing). If I choose not to pay taxes then I need not buy that new pair of pants, but being penalized for working & earning a living & following the rules is mindless tosh. (Do you realize that a country is by definition a "we"? That assumes participation on many levels and also means you give up certain rights and liberties to be part of a mutually beneficial system. "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a litle temprorary safety deserve niether liberty nor safety" -Benjamin Franklin I don't think I need to say any more on that statement. You know as in "We the people of the United States....") Thats "we" as a collective group of individuals not "we" as in for the greater good or as in your indivdual rights do not take precedent over the group. Our individual rights & freedoms should always take higher matter over the collective. If you ever lost your job, and were unable to get another one for some reason, I hope you make sure to not accept any sort of welfare that the government provides. I lived out of my car when I lost my job & couldn't continue on with my college education (and no I've never done drugs or even drank so it wasn't because of an addiction). Let me ask you this Mr. High & Mighty when was the last time you were homeless? When was the last time you were scrounging around in dumpsters looking for something to eat for you & your dog? Don't sell me this pitty bullsh!t cause I aint buying it. I've been as low as it goes & do you know who was there to help me? No one! I was 20 years old & I picked myself up & got my life together. I'm now working on my masters degree living in a nice apartment with my 2 dogs & my wife, so don't give me any of this we need to help everyone crap. I pay for school in cash every semester from a BS manual labor job that I have. I don't usually talk about this because everyone gives you that I'm so sorry look but they can take that & shove where the sun don't shine. Everything I've been through in life has made me who I am & I'm proud & happy the way I've ended up. In this world you either do for yourself or not at all. Period. If your house is on fire, I'm sure the fire department would be happy to know that you don't expect or want them to come save you and your family because of your principles. You know thats kind of a sh!t thing to say like I hope you get cancer & then you can really see what its like to suffer or some bullsh!t like that, but in any event I'll respond: In April of 1987 my family's home was pretty well destroyed from a flood that picked the house up & moved it about 30 feet away essential washing away most of our valuables & earthly posessions. Now even though my parents had homeowners insurance & had flood coverage because there was something like 6-8" of mud that came along the insurance company would not classify it as a flood (even though the water level was about 10' high). No it was classified as a landslide. This was a system that my parents paid into that was supposed to be there for aid & assistance when sh!t like this happens but instead they turned their backs on us. Now I know what you're thinking: Boston thats not goverment thats a private insurance company. Not when the insurance is through a state job that is ran by the state, then it becomes a goverment faction. Not to mention there are/were supposed to be programs through the state that are funded by our taxes that are supposed to help people out in times of dire need & disaster but when my parents applied for them they were denied based on the fact that they had jobs (not well paying jobs either) & had insurance. And I should hope based on your principles you would never send your children to a public school to get an education. I grew up in public schools in the poorest state in this country & let me just say our, as a nation, public education system sucks. I'd never let my future kids go to public schools & have to sit through that utter dribble that they spew out to these kids. The problem is you have some jacktard from Kansas (this is not a harp on Kansas or its people, I mean jacktard in the sense that he is a career politician, has no clue about the real world & I could have used any state, sorry for any harsh feelings) that lives in D.C. & tells people in North Carolina how to run their school systems. I'am not sure that people from Charlotte, NC know whats going on in Raleigh, NC or in Greensboro, NC & so on & so forth for that matter either. *Hey B, how was that? I don't think there were any personal attacks, right? See I can play nice when i want to * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoPathyGo Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Man, everyone here just needs a drink and a good cigar. Honestly, we're here because we like our trucks and share a common interest in wrenching and/or wheeling. That doesn't mean we're going to agree on anything else or convince anyone else about anything. I like cats; I bet there are at least 200 members here who hate cats. Well, that's fine because this is not the Cat Forum. Why do I bother writing this? A good discussion's one thing, making it personal is another. I would hate to see the emotions here spill over into the on-topic forums. E.g., nasty barbs when discussing lifts because XYZ really ticked you off with his/her/its opinions on whatever. Not saying that's gonna happen. Just hoping it doesn't and throwing it out there. *Goes off to get a drink* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 You are wrong with concerns of my life. My life is all for me; I don't live for anyone else nor would I expect anyone else to live for me. You might, but I don't...wow.. good luck with a mate and kids.. if you ever have them, that is.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoPathyGo Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 *Returns with drink. Turns around and heads back to bar to get a double.* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 wow.. good luck with a mate and kids.. if you ever have them, that is.. As was stated he lives happily with his wife and dogs. I agree with Boston. We shouldn't be forced to live for anyone else. No one deserves to have a piece of someone else paycheck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fukinitupagain Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Thank you Kingman. My wife has had an even harder go at life than I have & she's ending up better than anyone else I know. By all rights she should be another statistic, but she's not. As for children we are waiting until she gets out of law school & we are more financial stable that way our children aren't anyone's burden (you see 94 I'm in effect helping you out by taking care of myself & my own). I don't put much stock in the group or the collective but I'd bet it all on the individual. The group will always be mod rule, stupid, ingnorant & lazy were as the individual can be taught to think & live & can stand on their own. Its not that I don't put much faith in people, on the contrary; I put all of my faith in people, in the individual. All of these wellfare programs & assistance programs & all of this other special interrest nonsense is basically saying to free human beings of the United States that "You're not good enough to make it in life. You're too weak or too feeble or dumb & because of this someone else needs to do it for you. Someone else needs to tell you how to think, what to feel how to live because you are not good enough to make your own decisions & choices & to make your own way in your own life. So here, we'll take a little of your personal freedom, a little of your personal liberty because you are incompinent & in exchange we'll control your life for you." I believe that people are good enough, that people are strong enough & in a real sink or swim situation the majority of people in this country will swim. They just need to wake up & realize that they are drowning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fukinitupagain Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Hey kingman (And kind of for Jaya for trying to lighten the mood) I figured since I quoted Franklin once I would again for you since I like your little saying under your avatar: "Beer is living proof that God loves us & wants us to be happy." -Benjamin Franklin Happy Jaya?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 As was stated he lives happily with his wife and dogs. then that's even sadder then i originally thought.. I agree with Boston. We shouldn't be forced to live for anyone else. No one deserves to have a piece of someone else paycheck. and that's just naive to think that.. we all pay taxes, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) How is that even sadder? The man is happy with the way he lives his life and obviously he's the only one to thank for that. He has every right to live his life the way HE wants to live it, because it's HIS life and not YOUR life. It's not your life, so quit judging him for it. You have no right to imply your ideals on anyone else simply because for some fscked up reason you think you have the only correct outlook on life. Why should I (we) have to work our asses off and then get to see the large chunk of change that gets taken out of our paycheck so stupid, unmotivated, worthless, and lazy people can mooch off us and sit on their lazy asses and smoke weed and do drugs all day? Edited September 21, 2009 by Kingman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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