MichiganAve Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Yup, got the warn manual hubs installed on my 98 QX4 today. Note, this has the shift on the fly automatic 4wd that can selectively apply power to the front wheels when the rears spin, I don't know which models of Pathy have this setup. My understanding previously was: 1) 2wd on the hubs is okay to use only with 2wd on my dash selector. 2) 4wd on my hubs can be used just like stock. 3) Auto and 4lock should only be used with 4wd on the hubs. I got the 4WD indicator warning light about 10 minutes into driving home. It was in 2wd on the dash selector and the hubs were both in 2wd. The QX4 has an indicator on the dash as well which showed 2WD engaged, not 4auto or 4lock. It was not accidentally in 4lo. After stopping and double checking and restarting, the light stayed off for another ten minutes, then came on. Turned the hubs to 4x4, turned the dash switch to 4lock, drove (seemed to engage properly), then back to 2wd (seemed to switch). Drove it the rest of the way home (~30 miles) with the hubs in 4 and the dash selector in 2 without any error light. I later took it for a quick 6 miles test run with the hubs in 2wd and the dash selector in 2wd and didn't get the error again. FYI I found this thread on an Isuzu board: http://forum.planetisuzoo.com/viewtopic.php?t=4580 and am suspicious that the mechanic may have tested out 4wd on his test run. This was no idiot mechanic though, he's a former rally champion from eastern europe, who retired to become the head mechanic for a rally car team, and now is the senior mechanic at a small shop here in Chicago. Not sure I can really ask exactly what he did on that test drive however, as we have a language barrier... I will be driving 25 miles each way tomorrow in 2wd/2wd to see if the error comes back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4x4le Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Hey, i remember warning you not to get them. Remember? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted August 9, 2006 Author Share Posted August 9, 2006 Yes, I got your WARN WARNing . I also remember speaking with Mike at AC who said they were fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted August 9, 2006 Author Share Posted August 9, 2006 Update: I drove about 7 miles this morning with hubs in 4x2 and dash selector on 2wd, then the error light came on again. It is flashing "4WD" slowly just to the left of my cruise control indicator light, it is not solid. I switched the hubs to 4x4 but the light did not go out. I turned off and on the vehicle and the ligth was off again. I drove the rest of my 6 miles without the light coming back on. In the parking lot I switched the dash selector to 4lock and took tight semi-circles to both the left and the right. Both times I got that creepy "I'm driving on dry pavement in 4x4" feeling. No error lights with that. Switched back to 2wd ok. I will drive the next 13 miles before lunch with the hubs still in 4x4 and the dash selector in 2wd to see if the light stays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted August 9, 2006 Author Share Posted August 9, 2006 Drove the 13 miles back with hubs in 4x4 and dash selector in 2WD. No errors. Seems pretty consistent only to come on in 4x2. I can live with the error light in 4x2 if I can know I'm not causing damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted August 10, 2006 Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 Found this on a random website, not sure if it is true yet: Anyway, there are two things that will cause the 4WD light to blink as you describe. One is when there are different diameter tires on the car and the other is when the fluid temperature in the transfer case gets too high or the temperature sensor circuit is shorted. If the light blinks once every two seconds, it's a tire problem. If it blinks twice a second, then it's the fluid temperature or sensor. Like I said, its a slow flash, like every 2 seconds. It may be sensing the difference as the fronts are not connected, although the light doesn't come on for a good number of miles which is odd... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parthy Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 (edited) THIS IS WHAT ONE OF THE GUYS SAID WHEH I ASKED THE QUESTION ABOUT FITTING HUBS TO MY R50 ON OUR FORUM HERE IN OZ (PCOA ) HOPE IT HELPS :secret: I have had freewheeling hubs fitted for over 3 years and swear by them. I have had no problems with them ,even when I engage auto, or one of the locked positions with the hubs running free. I often (once a week) engage the 4High lock mode when sitting at the lights just to give the front drive system a turn over. I have even turned the knob to auto and 4wd high while moving and nothing happens other than the 4WD indicating lights coming on. When in auto mode the drive is predominately going to the rear axle. With the hubs unlocked, the system will sense a difference in the speed between the front and rear shafts and engage the clutch for the front shaft. The system thinks it is driving the front wheels and is quite happy. The only unusual thing that happens is when travelling at high speed 110Kmh+ in 2wd, with the hubs unlocked, the 4wd system light sometimes ( not always) comes on and stays on till the engine is turned off. Others in this form without hubs have had this light come on (in other situations) as well and have cleared it the same way. Edited August 13, 2006 by parthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted August 20, 2006 Author Share Posted August 20, 2006 Okay, so the factory manual for 1998 says that flashing every 2 seconds is overheating (what I am getting). Every 1 second would be difference in tire diameter. Other model years are opposite. I also have a final answer here. Manual hubs should not be used with the auto-mode 4wd found in QX4/Pathfinder. A Nissan master tech told me the following: "The front drive shaft has to turn for the pump inside the transfer case to operate. These all wheel mode transfer cases have a valve body and clutch pack just like an automatic transmission and require a pump to supply pressure to the assembly. If it is not pumping it will overheat. It will now work properly and can damage the transfer case internals." Looking at the factory service manual diagrams this appears to be the case- the front drive shaft drives the pump. In addition to not running manual hubs, the master tech also recommended changing the fluid in my transfer case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted August 20, 2006 Author Share Posted August 20, 2006 Okay, so I have posted 4 pages of the FSM that show the transfer case cross section and some basic info at http://www.geocities.com/fansler01/transfer.pdf if you think you can decipher how the pump is driven. Alex said he thought the pump was driven by the front shaft. I am also posting the whole section on the transfer case but it is 3megs and you will quickly surpass my bandwidth, so only download it if you really want to see all the diagnostics and further diagrams of the all-mode transfer case: http://www.geocities.com/fansler01/TM.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuismO Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 thanks for the heads up michigan...i guess that made my decision for me =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parthy Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 This is from oz mattie from the pcoa site in oz -bounce- have gone over the Workshop manuals for my 96 and can tell you that the oil pump is definately driven off the rear drive shaft of the transfer case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPLORx4 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 This is from oz mattie from the pcoa site in oz -bounce- have gone over the Workshop manuals for my 96 and can tell you that the oil pump is definately driven off the rear drive shaft of the transfer case. A 96 doesn't have the all-mode transfer case, so its internals may be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parthy Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 (edited) Mattie is trying to sort it out for the rest of us :bow: .I t seems he is the only one that is getting any where here is his latest findings Well I have checked the manual for the 2001 pathfinder with auto mode. The following is quoted from the manual. Description of Electrical Parts NATF0067 TRANSFER MOTOR NATF0067S01 1. The transfer motor drives the sub-oil pump to provide proper lubrication and oil pressure control when the vehicle is at standstill, during low-speed operations or is being driven in reverse. 2. The main oil pump is operated by the driving force of the mainshaft. In other words, sufficient oil pressure buildup does not occur when the vehicle is at standstill or during low-speed operations. While the vehicle is being driven in reverse, the main oil pump rotates in the reverse direction. Therefore the main oil pump does not discharge oil pressure. During any of the above vehicle operations, the transfer motor drives the sub-oil pump to compensate for insufficient oil pressure. 3. The transfer motor operates as follows: 1) The motor relay turns OFF in the 2WD mode. 2) The motor relay operates as described in the table below in modes other than the 2WD mode. So by saying that highlighted in the red the oil pump is driven off the Mainshaft which drives the rear wheels. And by the cross sectional view of the diagram previously mentioned in this thread you can see that the sub oil pump(which is electrical) is the pump located near the front drive of the transfer case. THANKS OZ MATTIE Edited August 25, 2006 by parthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 And by the cross sectional view of the diagram previously mentioned in this thread you can see that the sub oil pump(which is electrical) is the pump located near the front drive of the transfer case. So for dummies like me, it just happens to be near the front drive shaft but absolutely nothing requires the front shaft to be moving? Right? With more analysis this is sounding pretty benign and safe to use. This is the comment posted by 4x4LE on the Automotive Customizers (4x4parts.com) board that still worries me: (Manual hubs) will fit and work, but possibly screw up the wet clutch system in the all mode t-case which relies on the cv shafts and front drive shaft to rotate at a close to similar speed as the rear in 2wd and awd or any mode that does not lock 50/50. With the cv shafts not moving due to being disengageg by the hubs there will be increased wear on the clutches. This HAS been discussed befor on this board but im not going to search for it cuz it was an off topic duscussion in another thread and i dont feel like wasting the time. Your cv will most likely still turn (but not as fast) due to the friction from the cluches and will also most likely burn up alot sooner. Who from ac told you they are fine? Someone with out the specefic knowlege about your vehicle? Someone that does not realize how exactly your t-case works? Someone wanting a sell? Volrick???? Dont say you wernt warned. There is a reason you dont see people with all mode t cases with manual hubs. Dont get them! Case reopened and case closed. I never was able to find discussion about the wet clutch system being damaged by manual hubs however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4x4le Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Look, dont let me worry you cuz im not an expert. I just have heard the consirns and repeted them. If its fact that its ok, then it is ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parthy Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 OK hears the latest from OZ Ken, From what Mattie has found the Oil pumps appear to provide Hydraulic pressure only to operate the the front drive clutch. The main pump is driven from the main shaft. When this pump cannot produce enough pressure to keep the clutch engaged ( low speeds/stopped,and in reverse) the electric driven pump (transfer pump) takes over to keep the clutch engaged and the drive going to front axle, till the main pump produce enough pressure (main shaft turning at sufficient RPM). Simple really isn't it Regards Geoff, with working fine transfer case _________________ Geoff57 1999 ST, Lokka front diff, Bilstein rear shocks,etc, scratches only now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted August 27, 2006 Author Share Posted August 27, 2006 Regardless of when things switch between the two pumps, the front drive shaft powers neither so having manual hubs shouldn't change anything, right? The only real argument I've heard against the manual hubs on the all-mode 4wd is potential for not having the clutches completely disengaged in 2wd mode, and thus grinding. I believe it was suggested to test this by lifting the whole vehicle and seeing if the fronts move while in 2wd. If they are stationary, then the clutch should be completely disengaged. Now, if only I could lift the whole car with my spare tire jack to test this lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted September 10, 2006 Author Share Posted September 10, 2006 So I gave it a shot in 2wd with the hubs unlocked again today. Went about 9 miles on the highway before the error light began flashing slowly again. I quickly turned the engine off and on and that reset it. I drove another 5 miles before the light came back on. Again, quicked turned off and on the engine to reset. I then drove another 6 miles and didn't get the code again. At this point I gave up in confusion as if this is overheating in the transfer case then I figured the warning light should come on quickly after resetting the code (ie the temp would still be high). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted September 10, 2006 Author Share Posted September 10, 2006 It was also suggested by somebody to simply mark the shaft in front and see if it is moving while driving with hubs unlocked and in 2wd.... here come the results The tape fell off quickly but you can tell some distinctive marks on the shaft and there are bolts past the inner CV boot. It looks to me like all these parts moved each time, would you agree? left 1: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted September 10, 2006 Author Share Posted September 10, 2006 left 2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted September 10, 2006 Author Share Posted September 10, 2006 left 3: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted September 10, 2006 Author Share Posted September 10, 2006 (edited) left 4: Edited September 10, 2006 by MichiganAve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted September 10, 2006 Author Share Posted September 10, 2006 left 5: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted September 10, 2006 Author Share Posted September 10, 2006 Sorry for all the pics, but you can just scrolled them and see if you think they are moving. The camera angles certainly aren't perfectly the same every time. Looks like between 3-4 they didn't move or luckily ended up in the same spot. I'm assuming that reverse is only 2wd not 4wheels driven as I did have to back up a few times when stopping to take pics. right 1: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted September 10, 2006 Author Share Posted September 10, 2006 right 2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now