Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
RCWD21

Does anyone have experience with these little LSD blocks?

Recommended Posts

Like the title says does anyone have experience with these? I've read a lot about them but never been able to find anyone with actual hands on or even relevant experience with them. I can see that they might help but at the same time I can see the potential for additional wear and tear on the side gears.

 

I'm still on the hunt for a 300zx lsd for the front end but if these are even practical then I wouldnt mind giving one a try to see how it does. d4bcec71dd638fdfc5dc6bfa3b77d6d1.jpg

 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Never heard of them. What are they supposed to do?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This a copy of a copy of product brought into popularity by a company called phantom grip, it's designed to go in place between the spider and side gears and basically tighten everything up via spring tension and friction by pressing on the side gears. I've read a lot of reviews about them but no one ever comes back to report anything on them after any time of use. 

 

Theres several designs out there where some even use extra shim pieces to help with wear and increase friction. They range from $20 to over $300

 

ae5c39b6ca8d627efae0c90448ee4d52.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, don't know with that one. I went the simple and cheap route of buying a LockRight for the open H233B and traded center sections with a friend that had an open but wanted my LSD. Both WD21s had autos and 4wd, so didn't have to mess with the gears. 

There was a bit of a learning experience with the autolocker, but my LSD was a good one with a higher break away torque, so not too bad. It is funny watching the expression on friends faces when in a parking lot and I power brake with the front wheels turned and they see the truck go straight pushing the front tires sideways. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hmm, don't know with that one. I went the simple and cheap route of buying a LockRight for the open H233B and traded center sections with a friend that had an open but wanted my LSD. Both WD21s had autos and 4wd, so didn't have to mess with the gears. 
There was a bit of a learning experience with the autolocker, but my LSD was a good one with a higher break away torque, so not too bad. It is funny watching the expression on friends faces when in a parking lot and I power brake with the front wheels turned and they see the truck go straight pushing the front tires sideways. 
I just installed a locker in my h233b as well and just moving the rig around you can tell a big difference in the way it pushes in a turn. I just want something up front that bites better than an open diff lol

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anybody with manual 5speed lock right experience? I'm thinking of going that route . I only drive it to work and back but there is alot of loose dirt and mud were I work.

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Anybody with manual 5speed lock right experience? I'm thinking of going that route . I only drive it to work and back but there is alot of loose dirt and mud were I work.

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk


Theres a mud hole behind our shop and just idling through you can tell both wheels are pushing you through instead of one losing traction and spinning freely. Driving on pavement is noticeably different, to me it feels like you're being pushed by both sides of the vehicle instead of the power transferring side to side.

I'm not sure if this helps or not but it's a definite improvement over an open diff when it comes to traction

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The locker will only lock while under load. If you maintain or let off the throttle, or push in the clutch, it unloads and allows the wheels to have different speeds. It basically acts like a ratchet and will let the outside wheel speed up in turns so you are not fighting the turn. Hit the throttle in the turn, and it loads up and locks the axle so the inner tire is forced to try and turn faster than it normally would. One of w things will happen, either the grip will be high enough that the truck will plow straight in a turn, or the inside tire will break traction and either make a lot of chirping/squalling, and or snap the back end out when the outside tire breaks free as well. One reason I disliked daily driving my truck on snowy city roads. Other reason was I just knew some idiot without insurance would hit me. 

With a manual transmission, you will find the LockRight pretty easy to live with in all reality. Just a bit of a learning process, then you won't really think of it, but will love the extra traction until you find that a locker like 4wd is great at getting stuck deeper. But then again, getting stuck is part of the fun. At least for me it is, it adds interest and knowledge. We tend to learn more from our mistakes than when coasting after all. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks guys it seems we all have something in common, that being that we like the learning process and challenge. The way the boosted Honda guys like the lowered life and torque steer. Lol. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Mr_Reverse said:

The locker will only lock while under load. If you maintain or let off the throttle, or push in the clutch, it unloads and allows the wheels to have different speeds. It basically acts like a ratchet and will let the outside wheel speed up in turns so you are not fighting the turn. Hit the throttle in the turn, and it loads up and locks the axle so the inner tire is forced to try and turn faster than it normally would. One of w things will happen, either the grip will be high enough that the truck will plow straight in a turn, or the inside tire will break traction and either make a lot of chirping/squalling, and or snap the back end out when the outside tire breaks free as well. One reason I disliked daily driving my truck on snowy city roads. Other reason was I just knew some idiot without insurance would hit me. 

With a manual transmission, you will find the LockRight pretty easy to live with in all reality. Just a bit of a learning process, then you won't really think of it, but will love the extra traction until you find that a locker like 4wd is great at getting stuck deeper. But then again, getting stuck is part of the fun. At least for me it is, it adds interest and knowledge. We tend to learn more from our mistakes than when coasting after all. 

We don't really don't get snow in the part of California were I'm from the San Joaquin valley. Were more known for the  summer dry heat, rain and mud in between.. did you install it yourself?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, did the install in the middle of the night. Both my friend and I were scrambling to get ready for a week in Moab so swapped the center sections of our Pathfinders after work the night before we left for a week of 'wheelin and camping. Only took us about 4 hours to swap centers, install the LockRight, and some other last minute work on our trucks. It really is a simple project and doesn't even need to adjust the gear mesh since you don't touch the gears.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wanted to put the lockright in my Xterra, but they have 33 spline axles. The guy told me it doesn't matter. Can you confirm? (The differential is the one part of my truck I've never had apart lol)

 

https://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/powertrax-rear-lock-right-locker-nissan-h233b-4-pinion-carrier-pt-3220.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wanted to put the lockright in my Xterra, but they have 33 spline axles. The guy told me it doesn't matter. Can you confirm? (The differential is the one part of my truck I've never had apart lol)
 
https://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/powertrax-rear-lock-right-locker-nissan-h233b-4-pinion-carrier-pt-3220.html
Well since you reuse your side gears it should work just fine. All it does is replace your spider gears.

I'm assuming you have a wd22 here though.

I found the cheapest price on ebay at around $280 with tax. Just type in 3220-LR and you'll see it lol75bac2b8150aa358b6e46092f931831d.jpg

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's what I figured, of course the Xterra boards are just full of people arguing it won't work, but have never tried. Yes it is a WD22. I'm surprised being an SE SC it does not have an LSD so it should work in my carrier.

 

I was going to get one for my wd21 but it has an LSD and its too clean/rare to wheel now so I'm just keeping it mint.

 

On sale here too: https://www.justdifferentials.com/PT3220-p/pt3220.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/2/2020 at 7:41 PM, adamzan said:

I wanted to put the lockright in my Xterra, but they have 33 spline axles. The guy told me it doesn't matter. Can you confirm? (The differential is the one part of my truck I've never had apart lol)

 

23 hours ago, RCWD21 said:

Well since you reuse your side gears it should work just fine. All it does is replace your spider gears.

 

8 hours ago, adamzan said:

That's what I figured, of course the Xterra boards are just full of people arguing it won't work, but have never tried.

 

I can't say I've tried per se, but I've probably done more research about it than most.  My stance is that it won't work simply because the carrier it's supposed to use (a 2-piece/4-pinion open diff) never appears to have existed in 33-spline applications.  Every 33-spline open diff I've cross-ref'd is a 1-piece/2-pinion carrier, with identical internals.  But for other reasons, every set of side gears I've seen for 31-spline and 33-spline applications (and seem to hoard them), the teeth are cut differently: 31 gears have sharp teeth matching the LR-3220 cut, while 33 gears have rounded teeth.  (This topic is also why I did a write-up about converting a 33-spline truck to use 31-spline shafts, to use lockers like these.)

 

Precise1 put some pics of the LR-3220 here: http://www.nissanpathfinders.net/forum/topic/40280-was-the-factory-lsds-breakaway-torque-any-good/?do=findComment&comment=756688 and I posted pics of the 2-pinion 33-spline side gears two posts down.

 

Weighing in on the LSD blocks in the original post...it would surely function like a LSD, but I'd expect low breakaway torque.  I'd be curious to try, but not at a $350 price point.  I'd be more curious to know how well the blocks or side gears resist chewing into each other over time.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
I can't say I've tried per se, but I've probably done more research about it than most.  My stance is that it won't work simply because the carrier it's supposed to use (a 2-piece/4-pinion open diff) never appears to have existed in 33-spline applications.  Every 33-spline open diff I've cross-ref'd is a 1-piece/2-pinion carrier, with identical internals.  But for other reasons, every set of side gears I've seen for 31-spline and 33-spline applications (and seem to hoard them), the teeth are cut differently: 31 gears have sharp teeth matching the LR-3220 cut, while 33 gears have rounded teeth.  (This topic is also why I did a write-up about converting a 33-spline truck to use 31-spline shafts, to use lockers like these.)
 
Precise1 put some pics of the LR-3220 here: http://www.nissanpathfinders.net/forum/topic/40280-was-the-factory-lsds-breakaway-torque-any-good/?do=findComment&comment=756688 and I posted pics of the 2-pinion 33-spline side gears two posts down.
 
Weighing in on the LSD blocks in the original post...it would surely function like a LSD, but I'd expect low breakaway torque.  I'd be curious to try, but not at a $350 price point.  I'd be more curious to know how well the blocks or side gears resist chewing into each other over time.
I knew I read of a difference in the side gears somewhere but couldn't find anything definite so I figured I'd gotten something mixed up.

On the lockright locker though the teeth and valleys seem pretty deep to the point where a round tooth side gear would still fully engage without incurring any damage but I cant be for sure without putting said pieces together and checking the fitment out.

As for my original post though I've found the conversion blocks all over for as little as $20 but anything pertaining to the r200 diff and the price skyrockets. The main "spring block" I'll call it looks identical between the cheap and expensive versions except for the additional friction disc pieces.

I'd imagine the ultra cheap versions of these wouldnt last very long but who knows. I emailed phantom grip about theirs and they can't give me any useable info like what the break away torque is or the life expectancy of the shims.

And also hawairish would a helical diff be usable offroad? From what I can tell it doesnt take any special stub shafts or anything like a viscous lsd would amd they're 1/4 the price of a z31 clutch type lsd.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, RCWD21 said:

I knew I read of a difference in the side gears somewhere but couldn't find anything definite so I figured I'd gotten something mixed up.

On the lockright locker though the teeth and valleys seem pretty deep to the point where a round tooth side gear would still fully engage without incurring any damage but I cant be for sure without putting said pieces together and checking the fitment out.

As for my original post though I've found the conversion blocks all over for as little as $20 but anything pertaining to the r200 diff and the price skyrockets. The main "spring block" I'll call it looks identical between the cheap and expensive versions except for the additional friction disc pieces.

I'd imagine the ultra cheap versions of these wouldnt last very long but who knows. I emailed phantom grip about theirs and they can't give me any useable info like what the break away torque is or the life expectancy of the shims.

And also hawairish would a helical diff be usable offroad? From what I can tell it doesnt take any special stub shafts or anything like a viscous lsd would amd they're 1/4 the price of a z31 clutch type lsd.

 

That's the thing...without the 4-pinion 33-spline carrier existing, there's nothing to test there.  I'm not sure the LR would fit the 2-pinion carrier because the drivers are round, whereas the 2-pinion lockers I've seen/installed have flat sides in order to clear the carrier opening.  I would also think the rounded teeth may contribute to undesired disengagement.

 

Here's some other comparisons from my write-up using 31-spline lockers in the R50/D22/WD22 2-pinion carrier: http://www.nissanpathfinders.net/forum/topic/42436-31-spline-swap-or-how-to-install-a-rear-mechanical-locker-in-the-r50/?do=findComment&comment=781294.  Also worth noting that there was an LR-3210 that was also labelled for 33-spline use, but that was wrong because it only came with 31-spline side gears.

 

Regarding the R200 LSD blocks...the other thing I'm curious about is if those are "only" for car applications.  I'm not familiar with the R200 rear diffs, but their stub shafts use circlips to snap into the side gear.  Our LH stub shaft is secured by a long bolt that threads into a circular nut that fits into the side gear...and when seated, it sticks up probably 3/16":

 

2-C69-C030-ACE5-458-E-82-D7-4153-C62-B84 

 

Not to say it couldn't work, as long as the hole in one side of the block was wide enough to not interfere with it...but that doesn't leave much meat on the side gear to work with, and does make it a little bit more of a puzzle to assemble.  There are other ways to do it that I can think of.

 

As for helical/Torsen LSDs, they're not generally suitable for off-road.  They work fine if the tires are on the ground, but it'll act like an open diff once a tire starts slipping or is in the air.  You can apply brake pressure to trick it, but since this would be a front application, you'd have to 2-pedal it (or worse, 3-pedal for the MT guys) instead of being able to use the e-brake for rear applications.

 

By the same token, I don't think a viscous LSD fares much better for off-road use, either.  These rely on speed differential, too, but they also build friction from rotation...the slow speeds of wheeling won't contribute much to their lockup.

 

Even then, I don't know if either of those LSD units for a RWD R200 would work up front if you can't get the stub shaft nut in there...would probably need to have a similar piece made/machined.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
That's the thing...without the 4-pinion 33-spline carrier existing, there's nothing to test there.  I'm not sure the LR would fit the 2-pinion carrier because the drivers are round, whereas the 2-pinion lockers I've seen/installed have flat sides in order to clear the carrier opening.  I would also think the rounded teeth may contribute to undesired disengagement.
 
Here's some other comparisons from my write-up using 31-spline lockers in the R50/D22/WD22 2-pinion carrier: http://www.nissanpathfinders.net/forum/topic/42436-31-spline-swap-or-how-to-install-a-rear-mechanical-locker-in-the-r50/?do=findComment&comment=781294.  Also worth noting that there was an LR-3210 that was also labelled for 33-spline use, but that was wrong because it only came with 31-spline side gears.
 
Regarding the R200 LSD blocks...the other thing I'm curious about is if those are "only" for car applications.  I'm not familiar with the R200 rear diffs, but their stub shafts use circlips to snap into the side gear.  Our LH stub shaft is secured by a long bolt that threads into a circular nut that fits into the side gear...and when seated, it sticks up probably 3/16":
 
2-C69-C030-ACE5-458-E-82-D7-4153-C62-B84-A0.jpg 
 
Not to say it couldn't work, as long as the hole in one side of the block was wide enough to not interfere with it...but that doesn't leave much meat on the side gear to work with, and does make it a little bit more of a puzzle to assemble.  There are other ways to do it that I can think of.
 
As for helical/Torsen LSDs, they're not generally suitable for off-road.  They work fine if the tires are on the ground, but it'll act like an open diff once a tire starts slipping or is in the air.  You can apply brake pressure to trick it, but since this would be a front application, you'd have to 2-pedal it (or worse, 3-pedal for the MT guys) instead of being able to use the e-brake for rear applications.
 
By the same token, I don't think a viscous LSD fares much better for off-road use, either.  These rely on speed differential, too, but they also build friction from rotation...the slow speeds of wheeling won't contribute much to their lockup.
 
Even then, I don't know if either of those LSD units for a RWD R200 would work up front if you can't get the stub shaft nut in there...would probably need to have a similar piece made/machined.
 
They really made it difficult for us to put anything besides a solid axle up front thanks to that one little piece

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So what is the go to solution for upfront? What's proven?

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dozzerwd21 said:

So what is the go to solution for upfront? What's proven?


For what function, with what compromise, and at what price?
 

If you’re after full traction, a locker is well proven and is the only off-the-shelf option. From there, it’s $250-$350 for Lokka lunchbox locker, or $900-$1000 for an ARB air locker.  There’s no readily-available LSD specifically for front R200A applications. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For what function, with what compromise, and at what price?
 
If you’re after full traction, a locker is well proven and is the only off-the-shelf option. From there, it’s $250-$350 for Lokka lunchbox locker, or $900-$1000 for an ARB air locker.  There’s no readily-available LSD specifically for front R200A applications. 
Wouldnt a locker beat the hell out of the cv shafts though?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, RCWD21 said:

Wouldnt a locker beat the hell out of the cv shafts though?

 

There are times it can put more stress on the CVs, but that's not without saying there are certain things to do and not do when you have a locker.  For daily use, the stresses are largely negligible...on the street (and presuming locked/fixed hubs), it'll only briefly stress the CV until the rotational speed causes the locker (specifically, a lunchbox locker) to disengage.  When off-road, there's some added stress around turns, as the locker won't disengage on slow speed turns with torque applied.  This is why a selectable locker is generally preferred since turning when locked can be very difficult, and having the ability to unlock is a benefit.  In straight lines, it's negligible.  Other stresses from minor turns are usually relieved between the tire and terrain.

 

I'd also say having an open diff is probably more likely to bust a CV than a locker is when off-roading.   With an open diff, if a tire loses traction, that CV gets all the torque and free-spins the tire.  If that spinning tire then lands on terrain and comes to an abrupt stop, that's a CV-busting scenario.  If it were instead locked, the tire speed would remain in control, and even with the tire spinning in the air (at the same rate as the other tire, and potential while the vehicle was moving), so when it lands it won't be stopped abruptly.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Arb being everybodys dream locker :( that price tho ..

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Arb being everybodys dream locker Set_2_sad.gif that price tho ..

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk


No doubt $1k is 2nd pathfinder territory

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's the wrong way of thinking about it though. If you're going to build a rig from an offroading perspective, you shouldn't look at it from the price you can buy another truck from. If you are building it to keep for years to come, it's a small price to pay. And if you can't afford to buy one after even after saving for a few months, then it's probably not a sport you can afford lol. @!*% breaks and it can get expensive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

Welcome to NPORA Forums

 

Please REGISTER to gain full access to the forum.

Make sure you read the Forum Guidelines and don't forget to post a new intro in the New People Start Here! section, to say hi too everyone.

 

-NPORA

×
×
  • Create New...