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Drive-by-wire + AT + 4L = sucks


hawairish
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11 hours ago, RainGoat said:

Blasphemy! A BIG NO on that!

 

It's been a thought.  I think I should part ways with my Frontier KC 2WD and want to find a 1st gen Frontier SC CC 4WD instead...which, of course, my lockers and brakes would be direct swaps to (and I've got an entire spare rear axle and suspension to make it 5-link rear, if I'm so inclined).  Just a thought, though.  I can't haul steel with an R50 unless I get a trailer.

 

2 hours ago, RainGoat said:

Alright, just watched that vid. First off, great to see you & the Pathy in action. I can see your frustration in that first section. I didn’t think the 2nd looked bad and you absolutely cake walked that descent at the end! Need a new truck - give me a break...emoji3.png

 

Not to say the truck can't get through obstacles.  That's never been a problem.  Always doing it gracefully, however...I think that's how my passenger slider ended up against the kick panel.

 

7 hours ago, PathyDude17 said:

Engine swap!

 

Nay.  But, I'd love to put a 2wd VQ into the Frontier if I keep it.

 

10 hours ago, spicyheckboi said:

Just to clarify i said what i said from going up over logs to get up a hill. It idles up to the obstacle hits and stops. I smoothly accelerate over the obstacle from the stop with no issue of lurching or seeming like i dont have control. We dont have the gearing or power to just idle over things bigger than half the tire. Dont get rid of ur rig just build it the way you want it

 

Didn't see any mention of logs.  Saw "Jersey beach" which had me thinking about sand, empty glass bottles, and some t-shirt joke about Jersey girls not being trash ("trash gets picked up").  I'm glad you have a different experience; I need to hear that, but also wanting to confirm our usage of 4L is the same.  If your terrain can relate to what's in that video (that sums up my entire region and the trails I run) with prolonged grades and big dumb obstacles, and you're dropping to 4L to scale obstacles like those, then that's what I want to confirm.

 

I'm not expecting it to idle over anything, but I don't think my expectations of the truck are unrealistic under throttle either.  I assure you I've already built my truck up the way I want, and in terms of drivetrain and traction, the only core upgrade I've not done is crawler gears.  Hard to not feel frustrated when I've taken all the right steps to make the truck more capable, only to realize its weakest link is probably some stupid transmission control module.

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1 hour ago, RainGoat said:

I expect only XPLORx4 & maybe Stioc have done anything like what you do with an R50. (Oh & the British Guy - I’ve forgotten his handle)

 

Nah, those guys (plus TheexBrit) have gone a lot harder and farther than I have.  (Saw that Stioc put his truck up for sale, too.)

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  • 1 month later...

Hey, so Hawairish, I just stumbled on this thread and watched your videos. Here's my take on the issue. I don't think what you noticed has anything to do with the drive-by-wire system. It has everything to do with the torque converter and the insufficient low-range gearing of the stock transfer case. I don't know if you have the TX10 part time case or the TX14 full-time case, but neither t-rcase really has low-enough gearing for the kind of terrain and obstacles you are driving on. Before I installed my crawler gears into the TX10, I used two techniques to counter the  poor performance in 4L on that type of terrain.

First, I used the e-brake engaged part-way. This allows for controlled crawling up and over an obstacle without the quick and potentially damaging drop afterwards as the suspension compresses. You essentially drive using only the gas pedal, fighting both the obstacle's and the e-brake's resistance to tire rotation. Another technique I use (and still do, even with the crawler gears) is left-foot braking. I try to apply firm, but light consistent pressure on the brake while finessing the gas pedal. Don't let the obstacle determine how smoothly you make it over, let your feet do the "walking".

 

That being said, if your off-roading will continue to involve obstacles such as the ones in your video, and you have the part-time transfer case, I would strongly recommend swapping out the 2.02:1 low-range gears for at least the 3.7:1 gears sold by 4x4parts.com. These totally transformed my enjoyment of rock-crawling over challenging terrain such as the stuff you're driving on. (Plus, they enabled me to actually crawl at high altitudes, where the 3.3L engine has only about 125HP.)

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14 minutes ago, XPLORx4 said:

Hey, so Hawairish...

 

Totally appreciate that feedback.  I'm in agreement with you that it does boil down to the gearing and torque converter at this point.  I think I wanted to blame the responsiveness of the DBW system, but it's the entire crawl ratio of the truck.

 

I've looked into AC's and Calmini's options.  I have the TX10.   I'm considering them, though it'll likely happen when there's more opportunity for it (there's a small RMS leak, so it's bound to need it).  If my understanding is correct, the ACs don't require grinding the t-case housing for clearance, but the Calmini's do.  Correct?

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Hawairish, both sets of crawler gears require grinding the T-case. I opted for the 3.7 AC gears because they were less expensive at the time, and I had already developed a good relationship with the owners at AC over the years. (3.7:1 crawler gears installed circa 2006.)

 

I did not perform the modifications myself, having delivered the t-case to a drivetrain shop, who did the work on the bench. I did this because I lack the tools and expertise to handle that kind of work. Furthermore, I wanted the work to be covered by a labor warranty in case something went horribly wrong. FWIW, I was able to drop the t-case in my driveway using basic hand tools. Access to the top bolts holding the t-case to the transmission was difficult, and I found it relatively easier to get to them from inside the cabin than from underneath. Therefore, I removed both front seats, the center console and a significant portion of the lower dashboard to remove the floor plates over the shifting mechanism. The front passenger compartment looked like multicolored spaghetti. I had a friend's help removing and reinstalling the t-case using a floor jack. Access to a 2-post lift and a transmission jack would make the job much easier, and may avoid the hassle of disassembling the interior of the truck.

 

I cannot even comprehend how frustrating and painfully aggravating rock-crawling would be in my R50 without the crawler gears. I probably would have driven it deliberately into a rock or tree by now out of sheer frustration. 

 

A couple notes about the crawler gears: they do make a slight whining sound at low speeds, even in 2H. The low-range gear in the t-case always rotates,, even if it is not engaged with the front driveline output. In low-range, there is significant gear whine, but I'm used to it. If traversing a trail benefits from faster speeds (such as between major obstacles), it's really not much fun to drive in 4L ("D" w/ OD ON), because max speed is only about 35mph before you feel like the engine is over-revving. So, you need to fully stop, shift to "N", shift from 4L to 4H, then get going again.

Anyway, I am sure you'll make a sound decision with regard to installing crawler gears. If you opt not to install them, try the techniques I recommended earlier and see if that helps improve your trail finesse.

 

PS. Nice rear bumper!

 

PPS. Bucket list item: it would be cool for me to make a road trip down to AZ some day and have a meet-up. I'm sure there are lots of things we could learn from each other. I'd love to do some wheeling in Sedona.

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Hey, also re: your comment about needing/wanting a manual transmission. My opinion is DON'T DO IT! Especially not with 2.02:1 low-range gearing. You will burn up or glaze your clutch on your first trip out. In watching your throttle control, I noticed that you seem to be on and off throttle too aggressively and frequently, which gives the impression that you want to over-drive it. I think this is a function of not having enough torque to get over the obstacle. It's as if you're driving in 4H, not 4L. Get the crawler gears if you love your rig and want to keep wheeling it on that type of terrain.

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14 hours ago, XPLORx4 said:

Hawairish, both sets of crawler gears require grinding the T-case. I opted for the 3.7 AC gears because they were less expensive at the time, and I had already developed a good relationship with the owners at AC over the years. (3.7:1 crawler gears installed circa 2006.)

 

I did not perform the modifications myself, having delivered the t-case to a drivetrain shop, who did the work on the bench. I did this because I lack the tools and expertise to handle that kind of work. Furthermore, I wanted the work to be covered by a labor warranty in case something went horribly wrong. FWIW, I was able to drop the t-case in my driveway using basic hand tools. Access to the top bolts holding the t-case to the transmission was difficult, and I found it relatively easier to get to them from inside the cabin than from underneath. Therefore, I removed both front seats, the center console and a significant portion of the lower dashboard to remove the floor plates over the shifting mechanism. The front passenger compartment looked like multicolored spaghetti. I had a friend's help removing and reinstalling the t-case using a floor jack. Access to a 2-post lift and a transmission jack would make the job much easier, and may avoid the hassle of disassembling the interior of the truck.

 

I cannot even comprehend how frustrating and painfully aggravating rock-crawling would be in my R50 without the crawler gears. I probably would have driven it deliberately into a rock or tree by now out of sheer frustration. 

 

A couple notes about the crawler gears: they do make a slight whining sound at low speeds, even in 2H. The low-range gear in the t-case always rotates,, even if it is not engaged with the front driveline output. In low-range, there is significant gear whine, but I'm used to it. If traversing a trail benefits from faster speeds (such as between major obstacles), it's really not much fun to drive in 4L ("D" w/ OD ON), because max speed is only about 35mph before you feel like the engine is over-revving. So, you need to fully stop, shift to "N", shift from 4L to 4H, then get going again.

Anyway, I am sure you'll make a sound decision with regard to installing crawler gears. If you opt not to install them, try the techniques I recommended earlier and see if that helps improve your trail finesse.

 

PS. Nice rear bumper!

 

PPS. Bucket list item: it would be cool for me to make a road trip down to AZ some day and have a meet-up. I'm sure there are lots of things we could learn from each other. I'd love to do some wheeling in Sedona.

 

Awesome, thanks for the tips.  It's something I'd end up doing myself I'm sure.  I doubt it's a fun job, but probably one I'd take a stab at.

Good to know about the expectations, too.  I don't stay in 4L much except for obstacles, so that latter part shouldn't be a problem.

 

Thanks on the bumper.  I might end up replacing both in 2020 with plated versions, though, once I've got my new plasma table up.  I discovered the other week that the smash in that video put a hairline crack in a weld, so it'll need repair anyway.

 

If you can ever make it down here, that'd be great.  Sedona has a good trail selection, though some of the more-popular ones are usually clogged with Jeep tours.  Still plenty of options all around, though.  Jake (TowndawgR50) will be down here in February and I'm hoping we can hit some trails here and down in Tucson.   Another buddy down in May for Expo West.  I think I'm planning to pass through CA en route to visit Jake and the PNW guys in March.  Should be a busy year.

 

14 hours ago, XPLORx4 said:

Hey, also re: your comment about needing/wanting a manual transmission. My opinion is DON'T DO IT! Especially not with 2.02:1 low-range gearing. You will burn up or glaze your clutch on your first trip out. In watching your throttle control, I noticed that you seem to be on and off throttle too aggressively and frequently, which gives the impression that you want to over-drive it. I think this is a function of not having enough torque to get over the obstacle. It's as if you're driving in 4H, not 4L. Get the crawler gears if you love your rig and want to keep wheeling it on that type of terrain.

 

Yeah, I've dismissed the idea of converting to manual...parts too tough to come by.  I've converted a S13 240SX from AT to MT, but it also helped that there was tons of info out there.

 

As for the throttle control...that's been the problem: I'm not being aggressive on the pedal at all, but what you see is the result.  I'm literally feathering into it as gently as I possibly can, the tiniest increments I can make.  The truck gives a highly digital response...it's either going or it's not.  Gearing has got to be the solution. 

 

On a semi-related note, for everyone's entertainment...Tacoma triple t-case, insane crawl ratio, just idling up.  If only...

 

 

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My wife’s GX470 is DBW and literally just this morning I noticed that the throttle response does not have high enough input resolution. I’d never notice it under normal driving conditions but in sopping wet grass I could not give it just enough throttle to move forward just before the tires would break loose. It was either no discernible forward movement or too much.

 

I think it would be even more noticeable if the engine was more powerful or the gearing was even lower. However extremely low traction and rock crawling are very different.

 

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@DesertKyle I was actually down there over Christmas, but not with the Pathfinder.  Truck needs a little maintenance soon, but it'll be down in Tucson mid February when @TowndawgR50 is visiting AZ.  If his schedule permits, maybe I come down and we hit a trail.  I lived down there for a decade and still go there semi-frequently, but I didn't get into 4-wheeling until well after I had moved away, so I'd love to see the trails there offer.  Back then I only had a lifted 2wd Frontier and would go camping up in Oracle.  I only recently realized that the Charouleau gap trailhead is only a few minutes north of where I lived (OV).

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[mention=42235]DesertKyle[/mention] I was actually down there over Christmas, but not with the Pathfinder.  Truck needs a little maintenance soon, but it'll be down in Tucson mid February when [mention=37543]TowndawgR50[/mention] is visiting AZ.  If his schedule permits, maybe I come down and we hit a trail.  I lived down there for a decade and still go there semi-frequently, but I didn't get into 4-wheeling until well after I had moved away, so I'd love to see the trails there offer.  Back then I only had a lifted 2wd Frontier and would go camping up in Oracle.  I only recently realized that the Charouleau gap trailhead is only a few minutes north of where I lived (OV).

Ha, just yesterday I was just giving my $.02 on@TowndawgR50 trip & we settled on the area S of Oracle to camp the night before they go to Biosphere 2. My knowledge is largely 15+ yrs old now though.
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On 12/31/2019 at 3:07 PM, hawairish said:

@DesertKyle I was actually down there over Christmas, but not with the Pathfinder.  Truck needs a little maintenance soon, but it'll be down in Tucson mid February when @TowndawgR50 is visiting AZ.  If his schedule permits, maybe I come down and we hit a trail.  I lived down there for a decade and still go there semi-frequently, but I didn't get into 4-wheeling until well after I had moved away, so I'd love to see the trails there offer.  Back then I only had a lifted 2wd Frontier and would go camping up in Oracle.  I only recently realized that the Charouleau gap trailhead is only a few minutes north of where I lived (OV).

Nice, I grew up on the east side so I spent a lot of time up Reddington and Mount Lemmon, haven't been to the gap in a while though. My truck is doing good lately but still has open diffs and a transmission in need of a rebuild soon. I recently discovered my front diff bushings are shot but that's just a good excuse for a lokka :D

 

I'll pm you my number, I'm bad about checking on here. Just let me know if you're coming down and want some company! I still wanna tighten up a factory lsd too just haven't found one yet, if that offers still stands :)

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