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SFD without spring lift?


oreoloveboss
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Hello. I don't own an R50 (used to have a 2000 SE years ago) but am considering buying one and getting a lift to fit 32s. It's likely I'm confused about how the lifts work, but from my understanding the lift springs work by being stiffer to raise your ride height, and therefore your struts are closer to bottoming out. Spacers on the otherhand do not have this problem, but they introduce a new problem of extending your CVs beyond their normal operating angles.

So is it common out there to do say a 2" SFD and then use 2" spacers along with non-lift springs? Wouldn't this mean that now you have a 2" lift, with your struts in normal operating position, as well with CVs in a normal angle?

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37 minutes ago, oreoloveboss said:

Hello. I don't own an R50 (used to have a 2000 SE years ago) but am considering buying one and getting a lift to fit 32s. It's likely I'm confused about how the lifts work, but from my understanding the lift springs work by being stiffer to raise your ride height, and therefore your struts are closer to bottoming out. Spacers on the otherhand do not have this problem, but they introduce a new problem of extending your CVs beyond their normal operating angles.

So is it common out there to do say a 2" SFD and then use 2" spacers along with non-lift springs? Wouldn't this mean that now you have a 2" lift, with your struts in normal operating position, as well with CVs in a normal angle?

 

Basically yes, you have the concepts down.  Keep in mind, the stock R50 springs are pretty soft so it may be desirable to go with aftermarket springs to avoid bottoming out if you intend to offroad; once aftermarket springs are broken in, topping out isn't much of an issue.  If you do choose to go the spacer route, while it's more fabrication work, I'd suggest making custom strut spacers that correct for the camber so you don't have to use aftermarket camber bolts to get a proper alignment.

 

If you tow at all or carry lots of gear in the back you'll notice that the rear springs are pretty soft too, so you'd really be best off upgrading the springs all the way around, just my 2c worth.  :my2cents:

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If you do any kind of off-roading, I would recommend 2” lift springs all the way around. A 2” subframe drop is extremely costly and complicated for the potential benefit. I ran a 2” coil spring lift for almost 20 years on my 97, and it worked great. Here’s an action shot. a580047a5bff13a533c30f40fb863702.jpg


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+1 on both of above. Frankly, you’d be amazed at what stock will do. The rear OEM springs needed support when new (I used air lifts). LR springs in the rear are extremely cost effective-probably best combined with ARB OME front springs & spacers to level.

 

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If you’re concerned about CV angles, don’t get spacers. Get springs. Spacers are cheaper, but they introduce the potential to overextend the CV joints when the front wheels are in the air. The photo I posted above shows my 97 LE with a 2” coil spring lift and 265/75R16 (32”) tires on 16x8 wheels. As I said previously, I ran 2” springs for almost 20 years, and ran 32” tires for  almost 15. (The first few years of ownership, I ran 30” and 31” tires.)

 

In case you’re wondering, about a year ago, I installed a 4” subframe drop in addition to the 2” springs in front. In the rear, I have 6” coil springs. 

Edited by XPLORx4
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34 minutes ago, XPLORx4 said:

If you’re concerned about CV angles, don’t get spacers. Get springs. Spacers are cheaper, but they introduce the potential to overextend the CV joints when the front wheels are in the air. The photo I posted above shows my 97 LE with a 2” coil spring lift and 265/75R16 (32”) tires on 16x8 wheels. As I said previously, I ran 2” springs for almost 20 years, and ran 32” tires for  almost 15. (The first few years of ownership, I ran 30” and 31” tires.)

 

In case you’re wondering, about a year ago, I installed a 4” subframe drop in addition to the 2” springs in front. In the rear, I have 6” coil springs. 

 

To expand on what @XPLORx4 is saying here for clarity, longer struts for R50's do not exist.  As such, no matter what lift kit you go with, your front suspension will have exactly the same range of motion.  Whether you lift 2" with coils or spacers, when you're rolling down the road the road your CV's are at exactly the same angle.  However, when you're offroad and unload the front suspension on one side (flexing), the CV's will have a different experience with a spacer vs coil lift.  With a coil lift the suspension can still only droop as much as it could when it was factory-stock, so your CV's will be A-OK guaranteed.  However, if you have a spacer lift you run the risk of having full suspension droop be outside the range of motion of the CV's (since a spacer lift moves the entire strut assembly downward), something you may not notice until you've driven your R50 someplace where it would be especially unpleasant to deal with a CV breakage.  Spacer lifts can work, and work well, just keep in mind if you go too high you're pushing your CV's beyond their limits in some situations.

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Right that kind of brings me back to the original point though, with a 2" spring lift you're basically running with the struts dropped an extra 2 inches all the time, so even though the CVs stay in their angle the struts can now bottom out. Maybe I'm thinking that's a bigger problem than it actually is but for me it sounds like just as big of an issue as CVs going beyoind their range. But also it seems with just a 2" spring lift that you can't fit 32s without a lot of rubbing or cutting the fenders, especially since the springs 'settle' over time and you never quite get a full 2" like you would with spacers/sfd.

 

Is a 2" SFD really that complicated? From what I've seen the install is pretty straight forward and you may need to get longer brake lines. The parts seem reasonably priced too. It seems a lot more ideal to do a 2" SFD, 2" spacers and then stiffer springs/struts that ride at the same height as OEM than to use spacers alone or something like OME or AC lfit springs alone. You would get more lift, CVs operate at OEM angles and struts also ride at OEM position.

 

Is there anything 'unsafe' or overly complicated about the SFD other than the install?

Edited by oreoloveboss
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With a coil spring lift, the struts don’t bottom out, they “top out”, meaning they reach their maximum extension more easily. This is most noticeable over speed bumps or uneven road surfaces where the roadway ahead drops more than a couple inches. Of course, it happens while  off-road also. The topping-out sound can be disconcerting to those who don’t know what it is, but it has never seemed to affect reliability or performance on my R50, and I’ve had the 2” springs for 20 years.

 

While it’s true that a 2” subframe drop is probably ideal to avoid the risks associated with simple strut spacers as well as mitigate strut topping out concerns, a 2” subframe drop doesn’t make a whole lot of sense labor-wise. Simple 2” strut spacers (with or without subframe spacers) cause significant positive camber, which may or may not be wholly correctable using camber bolts. Keep in mind that an appropriately sized steering adapter will also be needed. If lifting 2” for the sole purpose of fitting 32” tires, I believe that the expense and time investment is not a good value. It might be cheaper and simpler to lift only 1 or 1.5” with OME springs, and trim the wheel wells or fender flares to fit 32’s.

 

I suppose that it really depends on the reason why one wants to install 32” tires. For on-road use and looks only, just get strut spacers and camber bolts. For mild off-road use, get a mild coil spring lift and trim. For rugged off-road use, get 2” coil springs. Unlike a simple subframe lift, a spring lift raises the IFS/steering rack crossmember as well as provides wheel well clearance for larger tires. That provides more ground clearance under the front suspension.

 

Just my opinion, based on nearly 200,000 miles and 22 years owning my R50 and wheeling it hard.

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Since longer struts don't exist for the front, when someone says 2" coil spring lift do they mean stiffer coils that cause the body to sit 2" higher than before but the coil itself is still the same overall length as the OEM ones?  Also if you use this method in order to put bigger tires on, let's say 31s or 32s for example vs the stock 29s, because the suspension still has the exact same travel it did before wouldn't you risk compressing the body/fenders into the tire itself upon bottom out or maybe even before bottom out the suspension?  Even though the tires might fit well while the suspension is at its normal sag position they can still be too big for the actual stroke of the suspension?  I only ask this because it seems logical to happen when I think about it but it seems when someone asks if a certain tire will fit with a certain lift is this idea taken into consideration or are they strictly asking if it'll fit at all when the truck is at it normal compression?  Sorry a lot of questions I know, that's the beauty of this forum!

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Also I feel like I should note I had a conversation on here with 02_Pathy about something similar. He’s got the OME HD coils setup on the front which got him a solid 1.75-2 inch lift and he partnered that with a 1inch spacer. He explicitly stated if you do this don’t go over 1 inch in spacers otherwise during full drop the CV will fail so for what it’s worth if you want that little extra more than just coils this has been proven. He said for about 2 years he did the coils alone and then added the 1inch spacers and has had good luck for a year. You will have to add camber bolts though but anyways hope this helped


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54 minutes ago, cham said:

Also I feel like I should note I had a conversation on here with 02_Pathy about something similar. He’s got the OME HD coils setup on the front which got him a solid 1.75-2 inch lift and he partnered that with a 1inch spacer. He explicitly stated if you do this don’t go over 1 inch in spacers otherwise during full drop the CV will fail so for what it’s worth if you want that little extra more than just coils this has been proven. He said for about 2 years he did the coils alone and then added the 1inch spacers and has had good luck for a year. You will have to add camber bolts though but anyways hope this helped emoji1690.png


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Yep, this setup has been used frequently enough to give it some decent backing. @mjotrainbrain Used it, though he had a heavy front bumper. @micahfelker uses HD coils with a .75” spacer and also has a custom front bumper. People have tried to do AC coils with a 1” spacer, but the results in that were far more varied. Way more issues with camber and binding. I’m not sure if anyone has blown a CV with the OME and 1” spacer. The other idea that’s been infrequently circulated around the forum is only dropping the front diff by an inch or less. Few have done it, and for those who have, few details have been given. But I’d guess for anyone dead set on a 3” lift, a custom diff drop would have to be in order as opposed to fighting camber and CV issues.

Edited by PathyDude17
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2 hours ago, cham said:

Since longer struts don't exist for the front, when someone says 2" coil spring lift do they mean stiffer coils that cause the body to sit 2" higher than before but the coil itself is still the same overall length as the OEM ones?  Also if you use this method in order to put bigger tires on, let's say 31s or 32s for example vs the stock 29s, because the suspension still has the exact same travel it did before wouldn't you risk compressing the body/fenders into the tire itself upon bottom out or maybe even before bottom out the suspension?  Even though the tires might fit well while the suspension is at its normal sag position they can still be too big for the actual stroke of the suspension?  I only ask this because it seems logical to happen when I think about it but it seems when someone asks if a certain tire will fit with a certain lift is this idea taken into consideration or are they strictly asking if it'll fit at all when the truck is at it normal compression?  Sorry a lot of questions I know, that's the beauty of this forum!

 

I don't know if the coils are longer, but they usually have thicker metal with more wraps; this is common in pretty much all lift kits for any vehicle.  The struts being stock length really isn't much of a limitation; other geometries of the front suspension limit far more, so I wouldn't worry about that.  As @XPLORx4 mentioned top-out isn't a huge issue, and if you're concerned about being limited to stock suspension travel, disconnecting the sway bar will do way more than a 2" longer strut ever would.  If longer aftermarket struts did exist, a coil lift with those struts would have all the same downsides as a spacer lift anyways.  That issue with the bigger tires fitting when the suspension cycles is something often overlooked.  If you truly want zero rubbing at any point in the suspension's travel, you may as well get the tires and start cutting before even lifting.

 

As a note about tire sizes, a tire which measures 31.5" tall would usually be considered a 32;  take a look at the actual specifications of the first couple tires in this list for reference:

 

https://tiresize.com/tires/BFGoodrich/All-Terrain-TA-KO2.htm

 

As such the stock tire size (which I believe is a 29.5") is really what you could consider a 30.  I have heard that some pre-facelift R50's came with 31's from the factory, and as such in many cases 31's on stock wheels will cause little to no rubbing.  The bulk of the issue with fitting 32's comes from the offset wheels that are necessary; in the front the tire swings further when turning which interferes with a lot more stuff, and in the rear the tire will no longer tuck behind the fender when flexing and will instead hit it, so you lose several inches of space that Nissan gives you under there.

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I've been running OME HD coils and a 1 inch spacer up front with no issues. I never had my CV's bind on a trail when at full droop. The only thing I had to do was add 1 set of camber bolts. I'm also running 32's as well

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The issue at hand isn't exactly the height itself, per-say. The issue is the cv's being able to extend (droop) farther than they were designed to. You can (theoretically) stick as large of a lift coil you want into the strut and get as much lift as you can out of it until it (the strut) reaches it's max extension and then tops out on everything, but you cv's won't bind up. Why? They are still within their range of operation. Cv axles are designed to function within the range of full compression of the strut to maximum rebound of the strut, from the bump stop all the way until top out (+- some wiggle room). There are certainly other factors that influence this, like wear and tear, but your cv's will never bind up and blow out. It's spacers that are the problem. Since a spacer adds lift on TOP of the strut, rather than within in, you're basically extending the total amount that your wheels can drop past the limit that the car was designed to operate within. A spacer around an inch or less is usually okay, just because of that extra wiggle room, but anything over that will allow your cv's to drop past what they are capable of handling. That's why I will never ever even consider using any sort of spacer over an inch on any vehicle that I plan on actually using. Sure, if you literally never touch anything besides smooth and perfect pavement, a spacer probably won't give you any problems. However, most of us on here have built our rigs to go to pretty much the opposite of that. Running any spacer over an inch is going to hurt your performance and make your car worse off road, not better. Like Dean said, if you plan on ever driving off pavement, you're not gonna want to rely on spacers. 

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15 minutes ago, micahfelker said:

The issue at hand isn't exactly the height itself, per-say. The issue is the cv's being able to extend (droop) farther than they were designed to. You can (theoretically) stick as large of a lift coil you want into the strut and get as much lift as you can out of it until it (the strut) reaches it's max extension and then tops out on everything, but you cv's won't bind up. Why? They are still within their range of operation. Cv axles are designed to function within the range of full compression of the strut to maximum rebound of the strut, from the bump stop all the way until top out (+- some wiggle room). There are certainly other factors that influence this, like wear and tear, but your cv's will never bind up and blow out. It's spacers that are the problem. Since a spacer adds lift on TOP of the strut, rather than within in, you're basically extending the total amount that your wheels can drop past the limit that the car was designed to operate within. A spacer around an inch or less is usually okay, just because of that extra wiggle room, but anything over that will allow your cv's to drop past what they are capable of handling. That's why I will never ever even consider using any sort of spacer over an inch on any vehicle that I plan on actually using. Sure, if you literally never touch anything besides smooth and perfect pavement, a spacer probably won't give you any problems. However, most of us on here have built our rigs to go to pretty much the opposite of that. Running any spacer over an inch is going to hurt your performance and make your car worse off road, not better. Like Dean said, if you plan on ever driving off pavement, you're not gonna want to rely on spacers. 

Perfect explanation. I currently have cheaped out and gone with spacers only to realize that I wanted to be able to go off road if and when I wanted to. Not to mention spacers occasionally gave me small cv clicking on road, before I got manual hubs to disengage then. Now I wish I had Springs, and will eventually swap to them

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Perfect explanation. I currently have cheaped out and gone with spacers only to realize that I wanted to be able to go off road if and when I wanted to. Not to mention spacers occasionally gave me small cv clicking on road, before I got manual hubs to disengage then. Now I wish I had Springs, and will eventually swap to them


Since you’re only one state away I could give you my current front springs + strut setup if I ever end up going with ac springs for a bit more height in the front


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20 minutes ago, micahfelker said:

 


Since you’re only one state away I could give you my current front springs + strut setup if I ever end up going with ac springs for a bit more height in the front


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I was wondering about that. You think AC coils are taller than the popular OME/Spacer setup? I was thinking AC and a .5” spacer would be the same height as the OME/spacer

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4 hours ago, PathyDude17 said:

 

I was wondering about that. You think AC coils are taller than the popular OME/Spacer setup? I was thinking AC and a .5” spacer would be the same height as the OME/spacer

 

The opposite should be true, AC is 2" and OME is 1.5"-1.75" usually.

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I didn't read carefully enough...OME springs with a spacer (depending on thickness) will probably be a bit taller, but AC springs are stiffer than the stiffest OME springs so if you have extra weight like Micah does they'll probably net more lift.

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14 minutes ago, mjotrainbrain said:

I didn't read carefully enough...OME springs with a spacer (depending on thickness) will probably be a bit taller, but AC springs are stiffer than the stiffest OME springs so if you have extra weight like Micah does they'll probably net more lift.

Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't thought about how weight might affect the height of each. But at least in theory, and assuming minimal to no front load over stock, AC + 1/2" spacer would have the same height as OME + 1" spacer, similar or more load bearing capacity, lower CV droop with lower chance of binding, and almost identical alignment difficulty. 

Edited by PathyDude17
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Yeah I would leave my 3/4in spacer and just upgrade to AC springs. I'm pretty much at the perfect height in the rear, but I'd like an inch or so more in the front. My tires don't rub at all or anything, and there's honestly not a very good reason to go with AC over what I have now performance wise, but it would sit a little more level, which I'd like.

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31 minutes ago, micahfelker said:

Yeah I would leave my 3/4in spacer and just upgrade to AC springs. I'm pretty much at the perfect height in the rear, but I'd like an inch or so more in the front. My tires don't rub at all or anything, and there's honestly not a very good reason to go with AC over what I have now performance wise, but it would sit a little more level, which I'd like.

Thats about how I see it. If you get there first I'd be interested to see how you like the setup

 

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12 minutes ago, PathyDude17 said:

Thats about how I see it. If you get there first I'd be interested to see how you like the setup

 

 

Will do. Probably won't happen for awhile though, I'm pretty happy with how it is right now and I have better things to spend money on... like food lol

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