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Mushy brakes


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#21 OFFLINE   Slartibartfast

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 02:13 AM

New master came today. Cardone 11-2585, which the Rockauto catalog says is correct for four-wheel disk. The picture on Amazon showed a reworked factory casting, but of course that's not what I got. The new one came in a Cardone box with the right PN on it, but is clearly a new aftermarket part. It looks almost exactly like the last one, right down to having "AB-36" cast into the side (though it is in a different place).

I bled it (the hoses they include for this are useless, so I went back to plugs), installed it, did some bleeding, and the pedal feels exactly the same as before.

 

Either I've bought another defective or incorrect master cylinder, or the master cylinder was never the problem.

 

I stumbled on this a while ago and thought, nah, can't be that. I'm running out of ideas and I'm sick and tired of brake fluid, so tomorrow, the booster's coming off, and I'm going to shake it and see if pieces fall out.



#22 OFFLINE   Slartibartfast

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 02:49 AM

Booster came out (easier with the alarm siren removed). Nothing obviously broken, not that I've had a good one on the bench to test against. The master-side pushrod adjuster is frozen up, but seems fairly close to where it should be (and I can't come up with how that adjustment would've gotten screwed up by a caliper replacement), so I put it back together. I adjusted the rod from the booster to the pedal, re-bled the master, and installed it with plugs so I could test it on its own. Press the pedal and it's the same three inches of squish with all three ports blocked off, so that's got me back to thinking the master ain't right. Third one in a row tells me it's probably me screwing something up rather than bad parts.

 

I've watched a bunch of videos on bleeding masters and all these guys with old American cast-iron stuff make it look easy. I don't know if I'm an idiot who can't bleed brakes or if whoever designed these master cylinders was dumped by a mechanic once and swore vengeance, but holy crap this is not going well. I couldn't make it do jack with the hoses this new one came with at first, so I used the plugs, bled it as far as that would go, swapped on the hoses, got a bunch more air out, let it sit, pumped a little more clear fluid through it, then installed the thing, bled it, bled all four corners and the ABS, hit the pedal and it feels exactly the same. Also, the master's making squelching noises now, so either the bleed didn't work somehow or air bubbled back into the master when I reconnected the lines.

 

:headwall:

I'm half tempted to try the half-ton Chevy MC swap. (Anyone still around who's tried this?) I'd rather not make this into a science project, but if the stock master's really this hard to get air out of, I'm inclined to rip it out and get rid of the bloody thing before it takes what's left of my sanity.



#23 OFFLINE   Slartibartfast

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 05:03 PM

Took it to a different shop. Got a call this morning that they'd managed to get some air out of the system and thought they were done. Pedal still bottoms out and the rear brakes still do nothing, so, no, they're not. :tired: They had another look and determined that the rear disks are doing less than the e-brake, which is saying something given how clapped my e-brake is. They're going to keep digging.



#24 OFFLINE   Bobsteriffic

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:25 AM

I'm a bit late to this thread but wow! I had a similar problem as to what you are describing, but after swapping my MC all my issues seem to be resolved...

 

Considering I just went down to my local O' Reily's and had them order a new one, I'm glad the one I got was the correct one and not for the drums as you said. My rear brakes definitely don't work near as well as my fronts, I'm assuming the ABS system is at fault for that... now if only I could find that damn computer lol.



#25 OFFLINE   adamzan

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:55 AM

I don't see how someone could have relocated yours without tearing out the carpets and cutting the taped loom open. Perhaps on the 1992 model it was never under the seat.



#26 OFFLINE   msavides

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 09:11 AM

I'm a bit late to this thread but wow! I had a similar problem as to what you are describing, but after swapping my MC all my issues seem to be resolved...

 

Considering I just went down to my local O' Reily's and had them order a new one, I'm glad the one I got was the correct one and not for the drums as you said. My rear brakes definitely don't work near as well as my fronts, I'm assuming the ABS system is at fault for that... now if only I could find that damn computer lol.

 

I believe it is under the bottom of the center dash cluster under the radio at the very bottom behind the shifters.  I have a 1991 SE and mine is not under the seat either. 

 

I believe they moved the abs computer under the seat for newer models with air bags and put the air bag computer in the place of the ABS computer on these later models.

 

I had a problem with my ABS light being on and it ended up being The ABS pump. Once I replaced it the light went off.  Try unplugging the abs pump and see if it changes anything

 

 


Edited by msavides, 14 May 2018 - 09:16 AM.


#27 OFFLINE   Slartibartfast

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 02:57 PM

Unplugging the ABS brick (not really a pump, it's just two solenoids and an accumulator in there) would open-circuit both solenoids, which would keep the light on. Wouldn't surprise me if they moved the module around between years. (I don't have an FSM between '89 and '94 to confirm.) If they originally had it in front of the shifters, but relo'd it to clear something, it was probably the ducting for the optional rear passenger footwell vents. I don't think the US-market WD21 ever came with airbags.

I wish I had an update on mine, but I don't.



#28 OFFLINE   msavides

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 05:44 AM

Unplugging the ABS brick (not really a pump, it's just two solenoids and an accumulator in there) would open-circuit both solenoids, which would keep the light on. Wouldn't surprise me if they moved the module around between years. (I don't have an FSM between '89 and '94 to confirm.) If they originally had it in front of the shifters, but relo'd it to clear something, it was probably the ducting for the optional rear passenger footwell vents. I don't think the US-market WD21 ever came with airbags.

I wish I had an update on mine, but I don't.

 

Miy abs light would come on after about a min after starting,  when I unplugged the Modulater, pump, whatever they call it (seen it called a few different names) it would come on immediately.  I just took a stab in the dark and replaced it. It took a few tries to get one from a junkyard, but I finally got one and it fixed the problem. 

 

yea your right air bags I don't think were until 97ish.    I seem to remember some box just above the floor vents . but I can't remember exactly. I know there is not anything under the passenger seat though.


Edited by msavides, 15 May 2018 - 05:50 AM.


#29 OFFLINE   adamzan

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 06:11 AM

The abs light on my 95 would randomly come on and off, without any real rhyme or reason. Then after replacing a leaking brake line I bled all the brakes. The light never came back on.



#30 OFFLINE   Slartibartfast

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 02:39 PM

Mechanic says he's ruled out everything but the master cylinder, so he's replacing that again.



#31 OFFLINE   RedPath88

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 06:28 PM

Can your luck with MC's really be that bad? :scratchhead:



#32 OFFLINE   Slartibartfast

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 08:11 PM

Seems suspect to me too, but it's either the master or the booster, and it's a bizarre failure from either component. I am increasingly suspicious of the booster.



#33 OFFLINE   adamzan

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 03:54 AM

I'm not sure how the brake booster could make only the rear brakes not work.






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