URGENT! My Pathy won't start :(

[William]

Hi guys,

 

BACKGROUND

 

My car has been parked for few months as I don't use it much and I travel a lot.

When I tried to start the car, it didn't. After ruling-out the battery, I first figured

the SPARK PLUGS are dead so I replaced them with brand new ones from NJK

(Iridium) which did not help either. I next discovered that the tank was bone-dry so

I manually filled it from a can and it did start and I used it for few days in a row.

 

THE PROBLEM AT HAND NOW:

 

The week after, I parked the car downhill near my home. It was a bit of a steep downhill

but I didn't think much about it at the time.

 

 

a) The next morning, I tried turning the car ON but it didn't even CRANK. I tried many times,

no CRANK what so ever . I checked the battery and used cables to jump-start it from

my daily-driver but it was not the battery as well.

 

I started smelling FUEL so I checked underneath the car, and to my complete surprise, the car

was slowly by steadily dripping FUEL from near the airflow filter onto the asphalt (see the arrow):

 

 

 

c) After many failed attempts to start the car or even CRANK it somehow, I figured the engine must be flooded with Fuel

which is preventing the spark plugs from igniting somehow. So I removed the fuel intake pipe feeding the engine, bent-it well

and zip-tied it. I next, removed spark plugs #2 and #4 (I believe. They were the nearest to my right-side and the easiest to

remove) and left those spark plug engine opening OPEN!!

 

d) Immediately, upon doing that, the pathy CRANKED and fuel started flying from the two open spark plugs holes. I CRANKED it few times

until I felt that the quantity of fuel flying out of the holes was getting less and less each time.

 

e) I then put back the SPARK PLUGS back into the engine and connected the wires. I started the engine (WITHOUT re-connecting the

Fuel intake pipe to the engine), and the engine ran just fine for like 5 minutes until it ran out of fuel. During that time, I managed to pull the car

out of that steep parking spot into a more level parking position.

 

The problem now is if I connect the intake fuel pipe into the engine, the car cranks, starts, and runs just fine for like few minutes before

the engine SHUTS DOWN and floods with fuel and will not CRANK again without repeating the same process above over-and-over again:

 

• Cutting the fuel intake
• Removing a spark plug
• Crank it a few times to relief the engine from the excess fuel inside of it
• re-install the spark plug and wire
• start the car

 

I have no clue as to why this is happening and how to solve it neatly without damaging the engine any further

as I am pretty sure the steps I followed above are not the healthiest or safest but I was stuck and had to improvise

 

Please let me know what you guys think. I am clueless

 

William

 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2015 by William

[daczone]

You have a bad starter relay.... VERY common pathfinder issue, About $14 at your local parts store, The relay is on your passenger fender. Try to start it and have someone touch it, it should CLICK, mine was flaky!

[William]

Ok agreed. But why was the engine leaking Fuel when parked downhill?

And why was the engine flooding with fuel? These don't seem to be "starter-relay" issues?

I could be wrong. Please explain

[Pav]

Oddly enough the same thing happened to me. When I was forced to park on a downhill overnight I had a hard time getting it to start. A few months later it started acting up more when it got warmer out. Finally it just would not start.

 

I changed the starter relay and still nothing. Checked my codes and nothing. Finally tried replacing my MAF and bingo.

[William]

Anyone knows the OEM Part Number for the STARTER RELAY to order it online please?

 

If it's not the STARTER RELAY, what could be causing the engine to leak Fuel from the Air Filter side when parked downhill?

 

William

[William]

I mean what controls the in-flow of Fuel into the Engine? It must be the Injectors. Right?

 

If so, and my Injectors (or at least one of them) are/is somehow stuck on OPEN, could this lead

to the symptoms I am having.

 

A friend suggested a faulty ECU believing the ECU is not OPENING and CLOSING the

injectors properly which is causing the engine to flood with Fuel and eventually SHUTTING DOWN

while driving or refuse to START/CRANK in the first place.

 

I checked the ECU by running the DIAGNOSTIC switch on its back. It seems to be functional.

Gave me no new errors (except the old "34" which is related to the KNOCK SENSOR. I've always

had this error).

 

William

[Precise1]

Yes, I think you are on the right track. Being parked nose down shouldn't really affect anything normally, because the fuel system usually operates at 40ish LBS of pressure (going from memory so I could be off a bit), and that shouldn't be achievable without the fuel pump running. Also, it shouldn't leak into all cylinders if one injector is faulty, and I don't think the ECU can keep the injectors open without the system being under power.

Seeing how you don't drive it a lot, what gas do you use? Do you add treatment for the storage?

Reason I ask, is I wonder if the O rings that seal the injectors in the fuel rails (one on each side) have been compromised and are allowing gas to blow by when the system is under pressure. Additives might cause that if they are left to sit, or they might just be old. Someone would have to pull a few of them to check (passenger side is accessible) and replace them with new O rings regardless.

 

Obviously pure speculation, but the first thing I can think of when you say the cylinders fill up with gas.

BTW, don't drive with that engine oil, it is compromised. Obviously, fix the issue first, but then change out the oil/filter before you drive it or you risk abnormal engine wear.

 

B

[William]

That makes sense B. I might have faulty injector "O Rings" (or even Injector).

 

I am slowly ruling out the theories of

- Faulty STARTER RELAY

- Faulty ECU

 

and "No" I do not have the habit of adding Fuel ADDITIVES to the tank and almost always fill it with regular 91 OCTANE at the station.

 

Unfortunately, IIRC, my pathy's previous owner sold me that car many years ago with a VG30E engine that had upgraded injectors from a VG33E.

I don't know why this was done but this is what I was told. Again IIRC!

 

In that case, Should I be buying replacement VG33E Injector O-rings or VG30E O-rings? Are they different?

 

Do you know the OEM part number for these O-rings to look for them online?

 

William

[Precise1]

So, what I am trying to address here is only the 'cylinders filling up with fuel' issue, not any cranking or starting issues. If they still exist, they are almost certainly a separate issue. UNLESS the car won't crank because of the fluid in the cylinders. Just like water (called hydrolocking), the liquid will not compress to the normal 9:1 ratio on the engine compression stroke, and will physically keep the motor from cycling under the power of the starter. I have to warn you, internal damage can occur under these conditions, so avoid cranking the motor in this condition without removing ALL the spark plugs so the liquid can be expelled. If the liquid is gas, MAKE SURE that spark plug wires, etc are not in a position/condition to produce a spark! Best bet is to completely remove the connectors to the coil which is on the passenger side of the intake plenum on top of the motor. Always wear safety glasses and have a charged, properly rated fire extinguisher a hand!

 

The question about the gas was unclear, sorry for that. First, 91 octane does not benefit the VG30 what so ever. Higher octane is to reduce 'pinging' (predetonation) in cylinders under high timing advancement, meaning high RPM, compression and or turbo motors. Just fill the Pathy up with regular 87 octane or what ever is the base gas available there.

What I should have asked is "is the gas there mixed with ethanol, and how much/what percentage?'. Point is, ethanol mixed gas goes bad. I believe the ethanol absorbs moisture from the air, then separates from the gas and can eventually reach a point where it can jell as well. This shouldn't happen in a few months, but it is common procedure to use products like Heet and Sta-bil for gas fueled things that may sit a while (lawn mowers, snow mobiles, boats, etc), and cars really are no different. I don't have a lot of experience with such products, so I'll let other cover them from here.

 

I'm not sure what the benefit of upgrading to VG33 injectors would be with a stock VG30, as the VG30 injectors are perfectly adequate for the motor, and IIRC, the flow rate is the same for both. (The VG33 is really only a VG30 bored 10% over, but with less aggressive cams so it shouldn't really matter). That said, I'm not sure if the injectors are the same physical size (either type fits into the same fuel rail) or if the fuel rail has to be swapped out as well. I have both, spare fuel rails and injectors for both VG30 and VG33 in the garage, but I won't have time to go and measure them until Monday or Tuesday. I will do so if you need me to/can't get the info elsewhere (online specs, etc).

 

Whenever you remove/install injectors, replace the O rings, and make sure to 'lube' them with gas just prior to installation. Only exception to this is if you have just installled/messed with the injector, and even then closely inspect the o rings for damage, flat spots, etc. IIRC it is only about $5 per injector for the two O rings, so it isn't worth skimping. I do not know what the part numbers are off hand, but Rock Auto is a good reference, even if you don't buy from there, and you should be able to cross reference VG30 and VG33 injector O ring part numbers to see if they are the same...

 

Ok, so, I'd pull the 3 injectors (from the passenger side as they are accessible without removing anything else) and check the O rings for damage, replace the O rings, reinstall, remove the spark plugs, cycle the motor to make sure it is cleared properly, clean the spark plugs with carb spray/electrical cleaner (just dry them), reinstall the spark plugs, fire it up and let it run to see what it does. If it starts to choke out, shut it off, pull the passenger side spark plugs (cylinders 1,3,5 FYI, front to rear) and see if they are fouled/wet, then cycle the motor with the coil disconnected to see of gas comes out of those cylinder holes. If the plugs are wet/gas comes out, it isn't the injector seals. It could be the pressure regulator has failed and is creating too much pressure, or the temp sensor could have failed and is giving the ECU such bad info that it is flooding the engine through the injectors.

 

Sorry, but I'm thinking as I type... Do you have a multimeter? Can you check the resistance of the ecu temp sensor? This would be the first thing to do; several people have had this issue, Kingman as one IIRC.

The ecu temp sensor is the rear of the two sensors, on the drivers side of the aluminum housing that the top radiator hose connects to on the motor. It is a thermistor who's resistance decreases as the coolant temp rises. Resistance should be:

2.1-2.9 K ohms @ 70 degrees

.68-10. K ohms @ 122 degrees

.3-.33 K ohms @ 176 degrees

 

I am going to stop here and mention a few things things...

The FSM is available for free download from the link in the pinned thread in the Garage section, and section EC is where I'm getting this reference/testing information. 1994 is the earliest year available, but most all of that pertains to your vehicle other than some body, dash and trim items.

I didn't see a particular trouble shooting description for flooding, but it might fall under 'hard to start' or other such conditions. You'll have to read through it and ask questions as needed.

Have you checked the ECU for stored fault codes? If not, please do so.

Do you feel up to this? This isn't necessarily a straight forward/easy fix, and if I'm already confusing you, you might want to take to to a qualified mechanic. That said, I (and others) are willing to help walk you through this as best we can remotely. You stand to save a bit of $ if you do it yourself, but time, tools, place to work on it and how fast you need it are part of the equation as well. No shame to say that you aren't up to the task for what ever reason...

 

B

[Slartibartfast]

This doesn't sound like an electrical issue to me--a sticking injector or something along those lines would only flood the engine while it's running, and I can't imagine the engine would run smoothly with one injector stuck open. It also wouldn't explain how it filled the intake with gas while the truck was parked.

 

My theory is that your fuel pressure regulator has failed internally. If the little diaphragm in there is knackered, fuel could be leaking past it directly into the back of the intake. When it was parked, the remaining fuel pressure pushed gas slowly through that line into the intake, filling the cylinder(s) with open intake valves to where they hydrolocked. Obviously the fuel pump wasn't running during that time, but given that you were parked at an extreme angle, the check valve that prevents gas from going down the evap lines if you have a rollover accident was more than likely closed, preventing the tank from venting through the evap system. (That system tends to hold some pressure anyway, causing the whoosh when you take the gas cap off.) On a hot day, the air/gas vapor in the tank would expand and have nowhere to go--unless there's a leak in the fuel system, in which case the expanding gasses would drive the fuel out through that leak.

 

I would pull that vac line off and see if there's gas in it. If my theory is correct, I would expect to see some gas drain out of that line after disconnecting it from the regulator, and at least a little flow from the regulator with the key on (no need to start it, just get the pump running).

 

+1 on changing your oil as soon as the problem is solved. The Cornbinder my dad and I have been working on had an issue a while back where the carb leaked a steady drip of gas into the intake. The poor thing ran so rich it rolled coal when it ran at all. It never leaked enough to lock up but the oil that came out smelled really gassy. Also, my cousin's Spitfire had a mechanical fuel pump diaphragm die and fill the case with gas. By the time she realized the oil level was way too high, the bearings were already shot.