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R50 Tire Carrier Mod: Let's settle this!


hawairish
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I went to 2 of my local "Pick N Pull's" yesterday and only found tire carriers for a '93 pathfinder. :( I will keep the search going. I also looked on the NPORA FB page and didn't find anyone selling one. :(

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I've got a couple of other projects/issues that need to be addressed before I could justify that. The autocross toy (03 S2000) needs some body work after going through a fence at an event.... stupid snap oversteer! The tire carrier isn't really a priority, if there was one locally I would grab it, but it wouldn't be worth the trip for me right now. Thanks for the heads up though.

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Hey hawairish how is the retrofit holding up 2 years in? Any spots where durability is a concern? I know you said you reinforced the latch and support on the bumper. Could you elaborate on that a little? My understanding is you used a piece of aluminum with holes drilled to match the assembly, then drilled additional holes in the frame to rivet it into place. Is that about right?

 

I was lucky enough to score a carrier assembly on my first trip to the junkyard so I will hopefully be doing this mod very soon!

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Mine's held up well, no complaints. But yes, the lower metal strip behind the bumper where all the latch hardware goes started to bend inward a little after repeated use. Still latched fine, but over time it would probably wear out the metal holes where the rivet nuts are seated. I put a strip of angle aluminum in the area to thicken up the steel. I had to overlap the rivnuts on mine because it was put on after the fact, but I'd recommend factoring that in from the beginning.

 

I had my bumper off a few months ago to fix the plastic and should have gotten some pics. I may take the bumper off soon for an upcoming trip and get some pics then. Eventually, if I ever fab up a bumper, I'll incorporate the latch mounts onto it.

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the lower metal strip behind the bumper where all the latch hardware goes started to bend inward a little after repeated use. Still latched fine, but over time it would probably wear out the metal holes where the rivet nuts are seated.

 

 

Did it happen to look like this? Kind of hard to tell but there is a crease in the metal about an inch from the left-most mounting hole. This was the pathfinder I pulled the carrier from.

 

20170522_152255.jpg

 

Did you have any ideas about how to reinforce that area from the start? Thanks.

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Kyle, I'll come get yours. Maybe someday I'll find the latch. I thought you might want to hold on to it for your new rig. I'd love to see all 3 of your babies & the drive to Fall City is a pleasant one for me.

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@jjonez: No, that crease is from something else. If I had to guess, I'd say the carrier was bumped into the chassis on that one. But on that truck the area is already reinforced. But for trucks without the carrier, the area where the holes are is thinner and it flexes inward a little there. That's where I have to aluminum to thicken it up a little.

 

@RainGoat: I've been meaning to hit up the JY near me...last time I was there, they had 2 or 3 R50s with some degree of carrier pieces. Not sure when I'll get there, but I can keep an eye out for them.

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So do you think I should just sandwich the lip of the riv nuts like you did or could I maybe install them through the aluminum piece and frame at the same time?

 

BTW I received the Astro riv nut tool thing today and it is nice! Hard case and everything, wasn't expecting that.

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@jjonez: No, that crease is from something else. If I had to guess, I'd say the carrier was bumped into the chassis on that one. But on that truck the area is already reinforced. But for trucks without the carrier, the area where the holes are is thinner and it flexes inward a little there. That's where I have to aluminum to thicken it up a little.

 

@RainGoat: I've been meaning to hit up the JY near me...last time I was there, they had 2 or 3 R50s with some degree of carrier pieces. Not sure when I'll get there, but I can keep an eye out for them.

 

hawairish, That would be great. @ferrariowner123 is going to give me an extra carrier he has himself but it doesn't have the latches so it sounds like that's the main thing I need. I'm lucky, I believe both @TowndawgR50 and @ferrariowner123 have added the carrier to their rigs and they both live nearby so I may have some experienced advice in addition to your excellent posting! Thanks for looking out for me!!

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No problem. I need to move a project forward, so I'll see how soon I can get to the JY.

 

IIRC, Kyle's carrier came stock on his truck, but he wasn't a fan of it and removed it. However, of those who have done it so far, there's me, duke90 (I installed his), CDN_S4, TowndawgR50, and BlackPathy_CDN. TowndawgR50 has the rivet tool, and some good installation tips as well, so he might be your go-to. You can also ask him why he's not installed the Spartan locker yet :laugh:.

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No problem. I need to move a project forward, so I'll see how soon I can get to the JY.

 

IIRC, Kyle's carrier came stock on his truck, but he wasn't a fan of it and removed it. However, of those who have done it so far, there's me, duke90 (I installed his), CDN_S4, TowndawgR50, and BlackPathy_CDN. TowndawgR50 has the rivet tool, and some good installation tips as well, so he might be your go-to. You can also ask him why he's not installed the Spartan locker yet :laugh:.

While you are correct, for daily driving the tire swing just isn't practical in my opinion, however, I didn't remove it I replaced it. My stock one wobbled in the on the joint so I got a new junkyard one and repainted it. I just have my old one lying around and is still in job shape and would work well on a trail rig.

 

-kyle

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IIRC, Kyle's carrier came stock on his truck, but he wasn't a fan of it and removed it. However, of those who have done it so far, there's me, duke90 (I installed his), CDN_S4, TowndawgR50, and BlackPathy_CDN. TowndawgR50 has the rivet tool, and some good installation tips as well, so he might be your go-to. You can also ask him why he's not installed the Spartan locker yet :laugh:.

Id be glad to help. Its a chore but doable over a weekend.

 

Really gotta make that spartan happen. Ive been keeping my eye out for a 4.6 and WD to rob to do a full Hawairish jobber while im at it so I can swap out my rear axle for towing season. I imagine towing would be sketchy with it installed

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Hawairish, Thanks for the consideration & the info. I can definitely see a swingate being a persistent pain in a daily driver. My rig is essentially dedicated to camping, snow & mulch/dirt & hardware store hauling. I think I will appreciate the utility of the swingate. I am now digging back into overlanding & trail running after almost a decade break of family building. BTW, I saw your kiddos are a couple years younger than mine so kudos to you for persisting in getting out (though I lived in PHX about 3yrs a decade ago & it's hard not to go out when you live there-I have a handful of years experience in AZ, Southern UT, SW CO & Western NM from that time-LOVED IT!!). I undoubtedly will lean on Towndawg50 a little if/when I do the swingate but I'm not going to harass him, he's been very generous of his time with me offline. And thanks again to Kyle for his generosity as well as your own. Honestly, I love the sense of "community" that exists in these forums-that & the whole overlanding thing are really such nice developments in the culture over time. To me, it's a real counterpoint to the idea that screen time is depersonalizing.

Edited by RainGoat
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While you are correct, for daily driving the tire swing just isn't practical in my opinion, however, I didn't remove it I replaced it. My stock one wobbled in the on the joint so I got a new junkyard one and repainted it. I just have my old one lying around and is still in job shape and would work well on a trail rig.

 

-kyle

 

Lol, realizing that I've twice been mistaken about your carrier.

 

@RainGoat: Yeah, NPORA is by far one of the best forums I've frequented. Good folk here, and I still keep in touch with a few of them offline. My kids love going camping and offroading, which makes me extremely happy. They also love climbing over and hanging onto the tire carrier...kid approved.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I thought I'd share my progress as well as ask a couple more questions. So far I've got the bumper latch assembly all mounted up as well as the aluminum reinforcement, which is definitely necessary. The metal that you drill into here is super flimsy and was deforming just from the pressure I was applying during the drilling.

 

Here's the full assembly

 

20170920_115135_1505934449567.jpg

 

And here's the reinforcement underneath. Is this the right idea hawairish?

 

20170916_170808_1505934449348.jpg

 

So today I was planning on doing the rest of the install but had some reservations after doing a torture test on an extra riv nut.

 

20170920_115107_1505934449753.jpg

 

I installed an M10 in a piece of unistrut with the intent to see how much torque they could resist before spinning out, but before it would even budge my bolt destroyed the nut's threads! I was applying a moderate amount of force with a regular 1/2" ratchet. If I had to guess, no more than 40 ft lbs. Also I was just holding the unistrut against the ground, no vice or anything. So my question to those of you that have completed this install, how tight did you make the bolts? Based on this test I would only be comfortable getting the bolts a little past snug with some loctite. Does this seem a little iffy or not a big deal? Thanks!

 

 

Edit: I tried this test again with an M8. This time I felt like I was a able to apply a little bit more force and the insert actually spun before the threads got jacked. It's worth noting though that it didn't completely fail, it still had a good grip on the unistrut and I was able to still turn the bolt inside the insert to remove it or tighten it further. I kept tightening it and ended up jacking up the threads again haha.

Edited by jjonez
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I bought the same ones from McMaster. When I install them with the tool it takes some muscle to get them to collapse, but there's still a point where I can tell they don't want to collapse any farther and I stop there.

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I've spun one of my rivnuts for the latch pieces, but that was before I put the aluminum reinforcement on (and part of the reason for doing it, as the metal around it had bent a little). The rivnut, though, didn't fail until after a few removals. I've used a drill and socket to attach mine without problems. I've used locally-purchased and McMaster ones for several projects already.

 

One thing about the Astro tool is that it doesn't quite have a specific twist-on amount that seems to work for all of the sizes it works with. For sure, if you collapse too much, the thread body shifts off center. When that happens, the bolt gets gouged up by the flange opening, and basically starts the cross threading process. For the M8 and M10 rivnut dies, I've found that twisting the rivnuts on completely and then backing them off a turn or so tends to be ideal. Full twist-on causes over-collapse, insufficient twist-in causes spinning (or over-collapse if you find yourself wanting/needing to collapse it further with another squeeze). Keeping the tool upright and perpendicular to the mounting surface can also be tough, but is important. It works well for what it does, there's a little learning curve.

 

Except in cases where I've over-collapsed a rivnut, I don't think there's a time I haven't been able to finger tighten bolt after installation, seriously. Do you have any hesitation when threading the rivnut on the die? That's never been a problem for me, either. Something I also do is I always thread my rivnuts fully onto the hardware before even installing the rivnuts...just a weird habit of mine so that I know I have all the hardware I need before inserting them (and don't accidentally put an M8 rivnut instead of an M10 one because they use the same size hole). Again, never had a problem.

 

Maybe yours are getting boogered up after the installation?

 

And yes, looks like you've got right idea for the aluminum. That's how I did it because it was applied after-the-fact. Is yours a strap or angle piece?

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Yea the aluminum is angle, there's a few more rivets underneath. As far as installing the rivnuts, I haven't had an issue with them being off center from over-tightening. I can feel when the top of the threaded portion makes contact with the opposite side of the material and I stop there.

 

I find with the rivnuts threaded on the astro tool such that the arms are fully open, it's too difficult to compress while staying accurate. So I'll thread them so the tool is half open, compress, then thread a little further and compress fully. This consistently gives fully compressed and centered results.

 

For those tests I did I was able to spin the bolts all the way till the head and washer bottomed out on the rivnut flange. No binding. Then I cranked away and the threads were toast. Again, they were surprisingly resistant to spinning out, though I could see how tightening/loosening several times could weaken their grip.

 

I think what I'm gonna try first is just a regular high strength nut and washer. I pulled the interior trim and it looks like I can get tools back there to tighten. The only ones that might be trouble would be the left 2 for the upper bracket, in which case I'll use the rivnuts for those. I like the prospect of putting smaller holes in the body, and if it doesn't work out then I can just enlarge for the rivnuts.

Edited by jjonez
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Will do. I ordered a 17mm flex head wrench today to hopefully make holding the nuts on the inside of the quarter panel easier. It'll arrive Monday so I'm aiming to get this done by the middle of the week.

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@jjonez Thanks for the photos. Those are helpful as this is on my To Do List. Let us know how it works out - it's a little bit of a cliffhanger for those of us considering this project.

 

Lol, yeah, drilling that first hole into metal is tough one!

 

Will do. I ordered a 17mm flex head wrench today to hopefully make holding the nuts on the inside of the quarter panel easier. It'll arrive Monday so I'm aiming to get this done by the middle of the week.

 

Good deal. Yeah, worth a shot taking the bolt approach. Toughest thing might be having full tool access to work both inside and outside the truck to get the hardware tightened. Get whatever assistance you can ensuring that the carrier's weight isn't resting on too few rivnuts/bolts, otherwise it will distort the body metal. I found it easiest to work with the gate closed, some wood that supports the carrier gate at the same level it will be when closed. Also be mindful if using larger washers inside the panel that the edge of the washer might press the body steel outward on some curves. May want to use a ball peen hammer to cup the washers maybe?

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Happy Friday!

 

20170928_144530_resized.jpg

 

2017-09-28_15.04.32_resized.jpg

 

I managed to get it installed on wednesday but haven't had time to do a write up.

 

I was able to utilize regular nuts and washers on the inside, and my one trusty hardware store carried M10x1.25 class 10.9 nuts, so I was able to reuse the bolts that came with the carrier, except for one that got lost, lets see if you can spot the replacement in one of the pictures.

 

As far as drilling the holes goes, this is the first time I've done anything so drastic to my vehicles, so of course I did extensive googling on the best method of drilling into metal. The general consensus was "high pressure, low RPM". Well no dice in my case. The sheet metal is pretty thin, and without a backing material to drill into, things can get hairy. I managed to booger two holes before working out my technique. Fortunately this isn't as critical as with rivet nuts.

 

The left hole is one of the good ones. I did clean the others up a bit after this.
20170926_114503_resized.jpg

 

For me what worked best was the opposite, a little higher RPM, and lighter pressure. A nice new drill bit will cut through this stuff in seconds, so there isn't a problem with overheating. Also working up the bit sizes helped me a lot. I think I did 3 or 4 smaller holes before the final 10.3 mm (13/32" bit from home depot). The last bit of material tends to want to pull the drill, don't let it bottom out cuz it could end up deforming the sheet metal (like what happened to that hole on the right). I'm no expert on drilling, and I realize this probably isn't "proper" or anything but hopefully it'll help some other novice deface their car... in a nice way.

 

For the inside of the quarter panel I used M10 fender washers as well as well as normal washers to help prevent the nut from deforming the former. I used a thin amount of adhesive to glue the nut/washer assembly together, this makes installation WAY easier. Inside the quarter panel is pretty much a black hole for hardware, there's probably half a dozen washers down there that will be with the truck forever haha.

 

20170926_165535_resized.jpg

 

I had some scrap buna gasket that I punched into washers for each hole, however I don't recommend this approach because they ended up deflecting a lot and squeezing out. I think some kind of dense foam would be better. I covered the bracket surface in electrical tape as well so I'm gonna try not to worry about it too much.

 

20170927_134333_resized.jpg

 

 

Now the fun part.

 

20170928_111100_resized.jpg

 

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These are the bolts for the bottom bracket. Looking at the truck from the outside, the right hand bolts (first picture) aren't any trouble, and the right bolts on the top bracket are just a bit more challenging. For the bottom left bolts (bottom picture), you have that nice little viewing angle through the metal while you attack from the left (where the red wire is).

 

The left bolts on the top bracket are straight up TERRIBLE. I was kicking and screaming before the end. Even with your head stuffed into the quarter panel there's no way you'll get a visual. It's all by feel, and it's tight, and it SUCKS. I have average sized hands and somewhat slender wrists/forearms. If you've got sausage fingers or popeye arms I'd steer clear of this approach. This is where gluing the hardware together really helps. And then after you've finally got the nuts threaded on you've got to get a wrench on those suckers. I had a much easier time with the leftmost hole (the absolute hardest one) after removing the bolt next to it. Oh yeah, a flex head wrench is mandatory for this, I bought this one:

https://uedata.amazon.com/gp/product/B01F5124X4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

I was able to torque the crap out of everything without any deformation of the quarter panel or the washers. Oh yea Hawairish, the panel is very close to flat where the bolts go, and the fender washers I used seemed to be the sized just right so that they still sat flush, no cupping necessary.

Edited by jjonez
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