Using Non-Pathfinder-Specific Coils to Obtain Lift - An Experiment.

[Iceman2989]

Okay. I’ve been working on this for a while now, and I’d like to share what I’ve found a very simple, hopefully helpful, way. If you have experience with doing any of this, please feel free to comment.

 

In theory, if we were able to find coils that have the same ends, and same inner diameter as the stock coils, as well as the same spring rate as the stock coil, but that had a longer free height by “x” amount of inches, we would be able to swap those in and net “x” amount of inches in lift.

 

Here are the specifications for the stock front coils. Thanks to borninabarn for getting the info on these.

 

The stock replacement for our R50 front coils is MOOG Part #81302.

Inside Diameter: 5.87” or approximately 5 and 7/8”

Bar Diameter: 0.609”

Outer Diameter: 6.479” (add the inner diameter and bar diameter numbers together to get this)

Free height: 14.8125”

Spring Rate: 180lbs

 

Okay, so theoretically we need a coil that is as close to: 5.87” ID, .609” bar diameter, and has a free height of 16.8125” with a spring rate of 180lbs to get exactly 2” of lift.

Looking at a list of the coils offered by MOOG (because they are sold on rockauto.com for cheap, and are readily available) there are many coils that come close to, but are not an exact fit for that specific set of measurements. Most of them that fit the diameter requirements are either a dramatically lower spring rate, or a different length than desired. Feel free to take a look and see if you can find anything that might work as a direct swap. (http://classiccarsprings.com/coil-spring-specifications.html)

 

So here is the next scenario. Get a coil that has the same inner diameter so it’ll fit right in, with the same kind of ends, but is LONGER than the guesstimated 16.8125” free height. Why? By getting a coil that is longer than what we need, we have the option of cutting the coil down to the desired height.

 

Cutting coil springs is a practice that has been used quite often here on NPORA on the rear springs when trying to get the desired lift out of Jeep WJ coil spring to accompany a SFD. The reason that the WJ coil can be used in the rear of the R50 Pathfinder is because these coils are also used with a WJ adapter to adjust the perch to accept the inner diameter of the WJ coil spring instead of only that of a coil meeting the R50 stock coil spring diameter.

 

There are certain kinds of coils that can be safely cut, and those that cannot. For to learn more about that briefly and succinctly, click here: http://eatonsprings.com/cuttingcoilsprings.html)

 

Cutting a coil spring does more than just decrease the overall free height. It also increases the spring rate of the coil. For example, if you take our stock 14.815” coil spring with a spring rate of 180lbs, and cut a coil off of it, the spring will become stiffer (aka the spring rate will increase), even though the overall free height of the coil has now been decreased.

 

If we get a coil that is longer than the desired 16.815” but a lower spring rate, and then cut a few of the coils off of it to decrease its free height, we may be able to find a coil that will then BECOME a coil with our desired spring rate, free height, inner diameter, and bar diameter.

 

How do we calculate that? Well, there’s a formula for it, and it goes like this:

Spring Rate=(G*d^4)/(8*n*D^3)
Where:
G=11.5x10^6 for spring steel
d is the wire diameter in inches
n is the number of active coils
D is the mean diameter which is equal to the outer diameter minus the wire diameter

An easy way to explain “n” is that all the coils on the coil spring that AREN’T in direct contact with either the base or top. So the “active coils” would be the ones that are in the middle of the coil, holding up the weight.

 

Well, I didn’t want to do the math, so I found this: (http://www.proshocks.com/calcs/coilsprate.htm).

This calculates the spring rate for you based on the wire diameter, the spring outer diameter, and the # of active coils. Since the MOOG chart doesn’t give you the OD, just do the simple addition and add the ID with the Bar Diameter to get it.

 

So, on a coil with a Bar Diameter of .609” and an OD of 6.479” with 5.3 or 5 and 1/3 Active Coils, the spring rate would be 180. Well hey, that’s the measurements of the stock replacement MOOG 80102 coil spring!

 

Let’s play with some different MOOG coils and see what we can come up with.

MOOG CC760D

Inner Diameter: 5.98”

Bar Diameter: 0.58”

Outer Diameter: 6.56”

Spring Rate: 100lbs

Free Height: 17.69”

 

So by playing with the calculator to find out what amount of active coils would make this particular dimension of coil have 100lbs, we can find out that it has roughly 7 and a half active coils. (Type in 0.58 Wire Diameter, 6.56 Spring OD, and 7.5 Active Coils and it comes up to 99, which is pretty close.)

 

Next, what happens if we were to cut a coil off of this coil spring? (change 7.5 active coils to 6.5)

It jumps to 114.48lbs! Take another coil off! It now jumps to 135.3lbs! Take off that extra half a coil! Now it’s at 148.83lbs!

 

Okay, so now we understand that each coil we cut off exponentially increases the spring rate of the coil, and it’s not just “x”lbs per active coil because that last half of a coil did almost as much as the first whole coil cut off.

 

I’m thinking we may need a pretty long coil to begin with if we want to jump it to around 180lbs to keep a similar ride quality. Let’s try another one.

MOOG CC768

ID: 6”

BD: .63”

OD: 6.63

Spring Rate: 113.5lbs

Free Height: 18.63”

 

For this one, plugging in .63 as the wire diameter, 6.63 as the OD, and trying to get 113ishlbs I get around 9 active coils. That is a lot more coils to work with than the 7.5 active coils in the CC760D.

So, cut a coil off! 8 coils jumps it from 113.95lbs to 128.19lbs. Another coil? 7 jumps it to 146.5lbs. Another coil? 6 Jumps it to 170.93lbs. Another half a coil? 5.5 active coils jumps it to 186.469lbs.

There we go! We cut off 3.5 coils and now we have our desired spring rate. The big question is, did cutting those 3.5 coils off make it so that our free height is now below our desired 16.8125?

3.5 coils is a LOT. I’m guessing that it did.

 

I want to keep trying until I find something that I don’t have to cut as drastic of an amount off in order to obtain the desired spring rate.

 

MOOG 80102

Inner Diameter: 6.13”

Bar Diameter: .64”

Outer Diameter: 6.77”

Spring Rate: 159lbs

Free Height: 17.38”

Using that calculator again, it ends up that there are right about 6.5 active coils in this spring to give it a spring rate of about 158lbs. If we cut one coil off of this, it jumps to 186lbs! That is pretty close to what we want. So going that route, the question again is: will cutting one active coil off of this coil drop it from its original 17.38” free height to below our target of 16.8125”?

 

Okay, new coil.

MOOG 5549

Inner Diameter: 5.58”

Bar Diameter: .64”

Outer Diameter: 6.12”

Spring Rate 166lbs

Free Height: 17.55”

 

Using the calculator again, it ends up with right about 8.6 active coils to give it a 166lb spring rate. By cutting that .6 off we jump it to 179lbs, and by only cutting off that much, there shouldn’t be a very drastic reduction from the 17.55” original free height. Cutting it to 7 active coils even jumps it to 204.8lbs.

 

I’m starting to think that instead of EXACTLY 16.8125” as a free height with 180lb spring rate, if we jump the spring rate by cutting off more than what it would take to make it the same spring rate as stock, we can have a shorter overall coil that may end with the same result of lifting the vehicle some, because it is stiffer and wont droop as low as the 16.8125” coil would with a lower spring rate.

 

Now this coil DOES have pigtails on both ends, as opposed to the stock ones which I believe only have it on one side, and the other is not. Cutting one end would turn it into the kind of coil that we need, one pig, one tang.

 

 

Okay, one more for today.

MOOG 5529

Inner Diameter: 5.56”

Bar Diameter: .64”

Outer Diameter: 6.18

Spring Rate: 159lbs

Free Height: 19.01”

 

Now here’s a pretty tall coil that already has a decently high spring rate. Using the calculator we can find that it has right about 9 active coils to get around a 154lb spring rate. Lop off an active coil? At 8 we have 173.44lbs. at 7.5 active coils we’re up to 185lbs. This coil is a pigtail on one side, tang on the other, so as soon as we start trimming that coil from the tang side, we are already starting to cut active coils as opposed to a pig tail end where we have to lop the whole end off first before getting to the active coils. I think this one is pretty close to a winner. The inside diameter is close to 3/8” narrower than on the stock coils though.

 

For those owners of both AC and OME or even Ironman coils, I’d be interested in having you post up the inner diameter of the front coils to see if there is any variance between them. If there’s wiggle room, it will probably help out this experimental process.

 

So far this has mainly been an experiment for the front end, as we know we can use WJ coils (with an adapter) for the rear. If someone wants to do the work and test a few coils out and see if there is a direct swap option using the MOOG coils, the same process I explain here can lead you there. I will head that direction once I've sold myself 100% on a set of coils that will work for the front.

 

Well, here’s the headway that I’ve made so far. I thought I ought to post it up and invite any interested to try their own combinations of coils to hopefully find something close enough to what we desire. More brains working on this the merrier. Thanks for reading my super long post, and for any further helpful information that any of you may provide.

 

[bushnut]

too much math for me

But necessity is the mother of invention! a cheep yet somewhat labour intensive front lift for an R50 would be great.

When you do figure it out please post the part # and how much to cut off.

 

Even if you found a slightly taller (say 1to 1.5 inch) lift but with a stiffer ride (so i can load more gear!) would be fantastic.

[devonianwalk]

Dang Ice .. I'm going to have to revisit this thread a couple more times to wrap my head around your findings. Nice work bro.

[ltsnotme]

The stock replacement for our R50 front coils is MOOG Part #81302.

Inside Diameter: 5.87” or approximately 5 and 7/8”

Bar Diameter: 0.609”

Outer Diameter: 6.479” (add the inner diameter and bar diameter numbers together to get this)

Should probably add two bar diameters to the ID to get the OD

[Iceman2989]

Should probably add two bar diameters to the ID to get the OD

 

...DOH! Thanks for catching that, I'll edit my original post to be correct.

 

 

EDIT: I guess its been too long since the original post to edit it, so I'll copy it and paste a new version of it.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Iceman2989

[Iceman2989]

Mods- If possible, please update my original post with this information, as the original post was inaccurate because of some missed math. I've updated it with this current version. If thats impossible, this will just have to serve as the new opening post. To all readers, please ignore the first post and just use the information in this post instead.

Okay. I’ve been working on this for a while now, and I’d like to share what I’ve found a very simple, hopefully helpful, way. If you have experience with doing any of this, please feel free to comment.

 

In theory, if we were able to find coils that have the same ends, and same inner diameter as the stock coils, as well as the same spring rate as the stock coil, but that had a longer free height by “x” amount of inches, we would be able to swap those in and net “x” amount of inches in lift.

Here are the specifications for the stock front coils. Thanks to borninabarn for getting the info on these.

The stock replacement for our R50 front coils is MOOG Part #81302.

Inside Diameter:
5.87” or approximately 5 and 7/8”

 

Bar Diameter: 0.609”

Outer Diameter: 7.088” (add the inner diameter and bar diameter (twice) together to get this)

Free height: 14.8125”

Spring Rate: 180lbs

Okay, so theoretically we need a coil that is as close to: 5.87” ID, .609” bar diameter, and has a free height of 16.8125” with a spring rate of 180lbs to get exactly 2” of lift.

 

Looking at a list of the coils offered by MOOG (because they are sold on rockauto.com for cheap, and are readily available) there are many coils that come close to, but are not an exact fit for that specific set of measurements. Most of them that fit the diameter requirements are either a dramatically lower spring rate, or a different length than desired. Feel free to take a look and see if you can find anything that might work as a direct swap. (http://classiccarsprings.com/coil-spring-specifications.html)

 

So here is the next scenario. Get a coil that has the same inner diameter so it’ll fit right in, with the same kind of ends, but is LONGER than the guesstimated 16.8125” free height. Why? By getting a coil that is longer than what we need, we have the option of cutting the coil down to the desired height.

 

Cutting coil springs is a practice that has been used quite often here on NPORA on the rear springs when trying to get the desired lift out of Jeep WJ coil spring to accompany a SFD. The reason that the WJ coil can be used in the rear of the R50 Pathfinder is because these coils are also used with a WJ adapter to adjust the perch to accept the inner diameter of the WJ coil spring instead of only that of a coil meeting the R50 stock coil spring diameter.

 

There are certain kinds of coils that can be safely cut, and those that cannot. For to learn more about that briefly and succinctly, click here: http://eatonsprings.com/cuttingcoilsprings.html)

 

Cutting a coil spring does more than just decrease the overall free height. It also increases the spring rate of the coil. For example, if you take our stock 14.815” coil spring with a spring rate of 180lbs, and cut a coil off of it, the spring will become stiffer (aka the spring rate will increase), even though the overall free height of the coil has now been decreased.

 

If we get a coil that is longer than the desired 16.815” but a lower spring rate, and then cut a few of the coils off of it to decrease its free height, we may be able to find a coil that will then BECOME a coil with our desired spring rate, free height, inner diameter, and bar diameter.

 

How do we calculate that? Well, there’s a formula for it, and it goes like this:

 

Spring
Rate=(G*d^4)/(8*n*D^3)
Where:
G=11.5x10^6 for spring steel
d is the wire diameter in inches
n is the number of active coils
D is the mean diameter which is equal to the outer diameter minus the wire diameter

 

An easy way to explain “n” is that all the coils on the coil spring that AREN’T in direct contact with either the base or top. So the “active coils” would be the ones that are in the middle of the coil, holding up the weight.

 

Well, I didn’t want to do the math, so I found this: (http://www.proshocks.com/calcs/coilsprate.htm).

 

This calculates the spring rate for you based on the wire diameter, the spring outer diameter, and the # of active coils. Since the MOOG chart doesn’t give you the OD, just do the simple addition and add the ID with the Bar Diameter to get it.

 

So, on a coil with a Bar Diameter of .609” and an OD of 7.088” with just under 4 Active Coils, the spring rate would be 180. Well hey, that’s the measurements of the stock replacement MOOG 81302 coil spring!

 

Let’s play with some different MOOG coils and see what we can come up with.

 

MOOG CC760D

Inner Diameter: 5.98”

Bar Diameter: 0.58”

Outer Diameter: 7.18”

Spring Rate: 100lbs

Free Height: 17.69”

So by playing with the calculator to find out what amount of active coils would make this particular dimension of coil have 100lbs, we can find out that it has roughly 5 and a half active coils. (Type in 0.58 Wire Diameter, 7.14 Spring OD, and 5.5 Active Coils and it comes up to 102lbs, which is pretty close.)

Next, what happens if we were to cut a coil off of this coil spring? (change 5.5 active coils to 4.5) It jumps to 125.27lbs! Take another coil off! It now jumps to 161.06lbs! Take off that extra half a coil! Now it’s at 187.90lbs!

 

Okay, so now we understand that each coil we cut off exponentially increases the spring rate of the coil, and it’s not just “x”lbs per active coil because that last half of a coil did as much as the first whole coil cut off.

 

I’m thinking we may need a pretty long coil to begin with if we want to jump it to around 180lbs to keep a similar ride quality. Let’s try another one.

MOOG CC768

ID: 6”

BD: .63”

OD: 6.63

Spring Rate: 113.5lbs

Free Height: 18.63”

 

For this one, plugging in .63 as the wire diameter, 6.63 as the OD, and trying to get 113ishlbs I get around 6.5 active coils. That is more coils to work with than the 5.5 active coils in the CC760D.

 

So, cut a coil off! 5.5 coils jumps it from around 116 to 138.20lbs. Another coil? 4.5 jumps it to 168.91lbs. Another half a coil? 4 active coils jumps it to 190lbs.

 

There we go! We cut off 2.5 active coils and now we have our desired spring rate. The big question is, did cutting those 2.5 coils off make it so that our free height is now below our desired 16.8125?

 

2.5 coils seems like quite a bit. I’m guessing that it did. I want to keep trying until I find something that I don’t have to cut as drastic of an amount off in order to obtain the desired spring rate.

 

MOOG 80102

Inner Diameter: 6.13”
Bar Diameter: .64”

Outer Diameter: 7.41”

Spring Rate: 159lbs

Free Height: 17.38”

 

Using that calculator again, it ends up that there are right about 4.7 active coils in this spring to give it a spring rate of about 158lbs. If we cut that .8 of an active coil off of this, it jumps to 190lbs! That is pretty close to what we want. So going that route, the question again is: will cutting .8 of an active coil off of this coil drop it from its original 17.38” free height to below our target of 16.8125”?

Okay, new coil.

MOOG 5549

Inner Diameter: 5.58”

Bar Diameter: .64”

Outer Diameter: 6.84”

Spring Rate 166lbs

Free Height: 17.55”

 

Using the calculator again, it ends up with right about 6 active coils to give it a 163.4lb spring rate. By cutting 1 off we jump it to 196.08lbs, and by only cutting off that much, there shouldn’t be a very drastic reduction from the 17.55” original free height.

 

Now I’m thinking that instead of EXACTLY 16.8125” as a free height with 180lb spring rate, if we jump the spring rate by cutting off more than what it would take to make it the same spring rate as stock, we can have a shorter overall coil that may end with the same result of lifting the vehicle some, because it is stiffer and wont droop as low as the 16.8125” coil would with a lower spring rate.

 

Now this coil DOES have pigtails on both ends, as opposed to the stock ones which I believe only have it on one side, and the other is not. Cutting one end would turn it into the kind of coil that we need, one pig, one tang.

Okay, one more for today.

MOOG 5529

Inner Diameter: 5.56”

Bar Diameter: .64”

Outer Diameter: 6.18

Spring Rate: 159lbs

Free Height: 19.01”

 

Now here’s a pretty tall coil that already has a decently high spring rate. Using the calculator we can find that it has right about 6.25 active coils to get around a 158lb spring rate. Lop off .75 of an active coil? At 5.5 we have 179.98lbs. This coil is a pigtail on one side, tang on the other, so as soon as we start trimming that coil from the tang side, we are already starting to cut active coils as opposed to a pig tail end where we have to lop the whole end off first before getting to the active coils. I think this one is pretty close to a winner. The inside diameter is close to 3/8” narrower than on the stock coils though.

 

For those owners of both AC and OME or even Ironman coils, I’d be interested in having you post up the inner diameter of the front coils to see if there is any variance between them. If there’s wiggle room, it will probably help out this experimental process.

 

So far this has mainly been an experiment for the front end, as we know we can use WJ coils (with an adapter) for the rear. If someone wants to do the work and test a few coils out and see if there is a direct swap option using the MOOG coils, the same process I explain here can lead you there. I will head that direction once I've sold myself 100% on a set of coils that will work for the front.

 

Well, here’s the headway that I’ve made so far. I thought I ought to post it up and invite any interested to try their own combinations of coils to hopefully find something close enough to what we desire. More brains working on this the
merrier. Thanks for reading my super long post, and for any further helpful information that any of you may provide.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Iceman2989

[shoesandsocks]

Just to bring up a quick fact tang side goes on the top i dont believe it wise to cut from thaat side because it used to help line up the isolator to keep it straight and lined up with the coil spring seat also the tang size is a slightly narrower than the other side so that might be a factor.And its tang and squared? i believe is what moog calls it as it is flat on the top

Edited February 27, 2013 by shoesandsocks

[shoesandsocks]

im gonna post pictures of the stock springs with a tape measurer cause i dont think the moog ones are right or they maybe and im just done just need my girl to get off bf3 for like 2min and ill get those for u guys

[Iceman2989]

im gonna post pictures of the stock springs with a tape measurer cause i dont think the moog ones are right or they maybe and im just done just need my girl to get off bf3 for like 2min and ill get those for u guys

 

 

That would help a lot if you could!

[Iceman2989]

I emailed 4x4parts about the AC lift springs, and got a reply back that was pretty surprising. The coils for the front are 200lbs OVER stock coils, and 1 inch longer. WHAT??? 200 OVER STOCK?!? Thats like 380lbs! Can anyone confirm or deny this? I replied back asking if it was simply 200lbs total, or really 200lbs OVER, and got a reply stating "Over." that just seems suuuuper stiff.

[devonianwalk]

I emailed 4x4parts about the AC lift springs, and got a reply back that was pretty surprising. The coils for the front are 200lbs OVER stock coils, and 1 inch longer. WHAT??? 200 OVER STOCK?!? Thats like 380lbs! Can anyone confirm or deny this? I replied back asking if it was simply 200lbs total, or really 200lbs OVER, and got a reply stating "Over." that just seems suuuuper stiff.

 

Wouldn't surprise me. Have you seen the side-by-side pics? I know we had a difficult time compressing the AC's while assembling the struts. Think about it, how much "push" would you need to "lift" the heavy R50 2"?

 

[Iceman2989]

Daaaang.... that changes everything.

[shoesandsocks]

sorry i took so long got the measurements though

 

free hight close up.

bottom diameter

top diameter

and an interesting discovery i but these springs on my older 96 pathfinder cause i feared for age and these were off my 01 no i found that Nissan made two different coils for the front they seem the same dimension but the older one has an extra coil and is much harder to compress and my 96 came with 31x10.5r15 from the factory.

 

so the challenge ice man is to find a spring that has a smaller tang side and a larger square side that's taller and a higher spring rate.

[Iceman2989]

 

so the challenge ice man is to find a spring that has a smaller tang side and a larger square side that's taller and a higher spring rate.

 

 

so the coil on the left is from a 96, and the right one is from an 01? But they're both for the front?

[Iceman2989]

Okay! Update!! I've been looking all over and doing the math, and it seems impossible to find a list of the specs where it'll show coils having different diameter tops and bottoms. SO here's the new plan! Get a coil that'll fit just fine in the top perch (thats the narrowest end) that is the same diameter all the way throughout the coil, and then SLEEVE THE END WITH TUBING ON THE BOTTOM! I'll just keep putting bigger and bigger size tubing on (layers) to grow the bottom coil into the diameter that fills the bottom perch on the strut!

 

Any thoughts about whether that'd work or not? I'm thinking its pretty dang close to finding an answer! So far, MOOG #5276 seems like a really good option for that experiment.

Specs:

ID 4.09"

OD 5.4"

Wire Diameter .656"

Spring Rate 303lbs

Free Height 17.05"

 

These are a bit taller than the AC coils, but have a lower spring rate, so they might get us right in the middle of what we want.

 

Bonus? They're only $46.79 on Rockauto! Sure beats the $180 AC springs!

[stioc]

Here's the diameters on the AC coils as promised (in my haste I totally forgot about measuring the free height ):

 

Fronts:

top/outside: 5.9"

bottom/outside: 6.8"

coil diameter: 0.625"

 

Rear:

outside: 6.2"

coil: 0.635"

 

Hope that helps

[Iceman2989]

That sure does, were there about 4 active coils on the front ones? (the ones not touching either the top or bottom perches)

[shoesandsocks]

yeah they were both for the front i put the 01 springs on the 96 and it lowered it .5 inch

[Iceman2989]

Okay, so here's a better explanation of what I want to try and do.

 

I want to use this:

 

 

In layers around the base of the coil like this:

 

 

To enlarge the base of the coil so that it will fit with the strut.

 

Another member used this rubber tubing to eliminate a squeak, and if it doesn't pose any threat to safety as far as "now it'll fall out", I would like to try it with a vinyl tubing that is even more durable than the rubber hose used in this picture.

 

Thoughts?

[Quaintbucket]

I'm interested to see how this plays out because that could mean serious cost saving for my lift down the road.

 

Will the tubing be thick enough to almost imitate the bottoms?

[Iceman2989]

Thats what I'm trying to make work. With using several layers of the tubing, we can essentially grow the base of the coil (which has about an inch wider diameter than the top) into whatever size best fits the strut's "perch" or "coil support" or whatever its called, and just worry about finding specifications of the desired spring rate and diameter to fit the top perch. I'm curious if doing so would be safe.

[Quaintbucket]

Oh, several layers. I misunderstood.

 

Theoretically, what you're saying makes sense. In the long term I'm not sure. Wouldn't the tubing eventually come out?

 

I think I just asked a dumb question...?

[Iceman2989]

No worries! Thats a valid concern.

 

It may eventually, but I actually just ran out to my vehicle and looked for myself and saw something interesting. I have completely stock suspension on mine, stock coils, stock struts, all 16 years old. There is actually already a rubber sleeve on the bottom of the coil! Didnt know that. On the driver's side it had shifted about a half inch off of the coil. On the passenger's side it had moved right around an inch. Knowing that its stock, and hasnt ever been replaced, and only having an inch of movement in 16 years, I dont think it'll be much of a problem as far as shifting. I probably wont own the vehicle for ANOTHER 16 years, so if it shifts before then I can just take em off, push the tubing back, and then replace em.

[Quaintbucket]

How did it go?

[Iceman2989]

I havent purchased new springs yet. Still making sure I do it right the first time so that I dont waste hard earned play money. As a newlywed with a kid on the way, where we're both in school and I work full-time, there's not an exceptional amount of play money. The Pathfinder needs new suspension, so this is a good time to upgrade. I'll update this with my progress when I finally start throwing money at it.