vengeful Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 The Worlds Tightest R50 Limited Slip Including H233b Gear Setup Information Well, a couple of cut fingers, busted knuckles and some very unusual scrapes later, it's done. It's official. The limited slip in Laxman's 2001 R50 Pathfinder is the tightest LSD in any Pathfinder out there. With an estimated breakaway rating of over 250ft-lbs(*1), it's more spool than LSD. Background Information: First off, a little bit of background information. The R50 Nissan Pathfinder (henceforth referred to as R50) LSD is rated at only 64-80ft-lbs of breakaway force, with an average rating around 76ft-lbs. Mike's 2001 R50, with the VQ35DE and a 5-speed manual transmission is equipped with an HG43, 4.363:1 Ring & Pinion ratio, 33-spline H233b rear axle. The Donor 2002 Frontier Desert Runner (henceforth referred to as DR) was equipped with a VG33E, 5-speed manual transmission, and equipped with an HG46, 4.636:1 Ring & Pinion Ratio 33-spine, H233b rear axle. After some thorough research through Nissan Factory Service Manuals, and Nissan's factory parts system, FAST, it was determined that the internals of the differentials, save for the clutch packs and the side gears, were identical. The difference in the side gears is not in the mesh, but rather in the clutch pack side. The R50 Side gear had a hexagonal clutch mounting area, whereas the DR side gear was a 12-point, mirroring the "teeth" on the friction discs. This photo shows the R50 differential with the case removed, showing the hexagonal side gear. The clutch pack was removed for this photo. It was also determined that the side gears were interchangeable between differentials, as long as the side gears used were the same on each side. The added "teeth" on the side gear help to grab the "teeth" on the friction plates, and limit slippage of the friction discs. This photo shows the DR differential with the case removed. You can see inside of the clutch pack the 12-point side gear "flanges." Required Tools: Lug Wrench Ft-lb torque wrench capable of 150ft-lbs. in-lb torque wrench Dial Indicator on Magnetic base Assorted metric Wrenches and Sockets, 14mm, 17mm impact sockets Floor jack Jack Stands Drum Brake Spring Tool - big helper! Screw drivers Pry bar Small (1/4") paint brush Parts & Supplies Needed: Donor differential or 3rd member. Ultra-Black RTV Sealant Permatex Prussian Blue Gear Marking Compound Gear Oil for your Differential Brake Fluid Thread Locker (in case) Note: This is not an overly difficult job, but there are several safety critical systems involved. See bold, italicized text below for caution. Preliminary Steps and Disassembly: The first thing to do is raise the truck and secure the body on jack-stands. I like to position my jack-stands just before the rear LCA mounts on the frame. Also, support the axle with jack-stands, slightly lower than the body, so it, too, is secured. Remove the wheels. Before you can work on the differential, you've got to remove it from the vehicle. So your first step is going to be draining the oil from the rear diff. Be sure you remove the fill plug first, otherwise, if you can't get it off, and you've already drained the diff, you're kind of out of luck. I HIGHLY recommend having a service manual handy. We consulted both the Nissan Factory Service manual for both the Frontier and the Pathfinder, as well as the Hayne's manuals. In fact, I would not recommend performing this work if you're not 100% confident in your mechanical abilities, and have a service manual handy. This involves completely disassembling the rear brakes, removing the driveshaft, removing the axles, and removing the differential third member. There is quite a lot of safety critical stuff that you will be dealing with in the course of this work, so please, use good judgment. If you're not 100% confident that you are capable of doing this, have someone help you. Once you've got the vehicle securely on jack-stands, you can proceed to disassemble the rear brake drums. You will need to have both drums disassembled completely, so it may help to take photographs of them so you can consult them when you go to reassemble the drums several hours later, as it may not be fresh in your memory. Once you've got the drums apart, all the hydraulic lines disconnected and the parking brake cable detached, you can remove the 4 bolts (17mm) that secure the axle into the axle tube. The service manuals recommend using a slide-hammer to pull the axles, but we were able to do so with some light taps from a 1.5lb sledge hammer. Place a drain pan underneath each axle-end, as you'll be losing brake fluid the whole time. You will want to inspect your axle oil seals. Replace if necessary. Our 96,000 mile R50's were fine, so we left them alone. Clean up the grease on the end of the axle-tube and install new grease at the hub. This picture shows the disassembled axle ends. You can see the hydraulic line for the brakes seeping brake fluid all over the place, and the parking brake cable secured off to the side. You're also going to need to disconnect the driveshaft from the pinion side of the 3rd member. It is 4 17mm bolts with nuts that secure it, so you'll need a 17mm socket, and wrench. Have a helper put the vehicle in and out of gear to allow the shaft to rotate as needed. Once you've got the driveshaft disconnected from the 3rd member, you can start removing the 3rd member. The nuts securing the 3rd member to the axle housing are 14mm. Be careful removing these as sometimes the nut will be lightly seized and will want to take the stud with it. If this occurs, during reassembly, apply some threadlocking compound to the stud. Take note of the orientation of the 3rd member as you're removing it from the axle. Pull the 3rd member out from under the vehicle. This is DEFINITELY a two person job. It's about 90lbs, and not exactly in a convenient place. It helps to have a creeper handy to roll the 3rd out from underneath. This picture shows the axle housing with the third member removed. Take note of the orientation as you're removing the 3rd member from the axle. Follow the steps on This Page to disassemble your Differential housing. This photo shows some assorted differential parts. Be sure you keep track of what goes where and which diff housing each piece is from. The Modification: Since the part numbers for the friction plates, and friction discs, along with all other internal parts of the differential that are contained in both differentials are the same between the DR and the R50(*2), we decided that instead of simply swapping ring gears and dropping the DR LSD into the R50, we would scavenge some of the friction material from the R50 clutch packs, and insert them into the DR differential. This photo shows the factory R50 clutch pack arrangement. The pieces with the tabs are the Friction Plates; the ones without are the friction discs. The reason the R50 LSD is so weak, it that it is comprised of nearly all friction plates. There are only two friction discs in the entire differential. The friction plates do not create ample friction between each other, only between a disc and a plate. So, we decided to take the two friction discs and either two or three of the friction plates from the R50 differential, and add them to the DR differential. This photo shows the factory DR LSD clutch pack configuration. Again, the units with the tabs are the friction plates, and the units without are the discs. The big fat disc in the middle is simply a shim plate that aids in friction between the F-plates. We measured the thickness of this plate and measured the thickness of our replacement arrangement from the R50 differential. It was determined that two friction plates and two friction discs would be the ideal thickness to replace this shim plate. The new configuration is slightly taller, overall, than the factory configuration, but Nissan includes two spring shim plates that will compress when the differential case is reassembled. For maximum performance, it is highly recommended that for each friction disc, you have at least one friction plate on each side, i.e. f-plate, f-disc, f-plate, f-disc, f-plate, etc. This photo shows the modified clutch pack configuration. Note the alternating friction plate, friction disc pattern. You are free to adjust this pattern any way you see fit, but make sure that the pattern is the same on each side of the differential - starting from the inside-out. The Ring Gear side must mirror the non-Ring gear side. Re-Assembly & H233b Gear Setup: Now that you've gotten your clutch pack configuration figured out, and you've got your clutch packs on the side gears and loaded into the differential case, it's time to put everything back together. Assemble the differential case. Since we were swapping ring gears, we installed the ring gear at this point. You may not be swapping ring gears if you're reusing your factory housing. We switched housings because the DR one had better bearings, and it was easier to swap the ring gear than the bearings. Also, you must not mix and match R&P sets, even if they are the same ratio. They come matched from the factory for optimal set-up. Using a different ring gear with your original pinion will result in a poor contact, and premature wear, loud gear whine, or worse. Once you've got the differential housing assembled with the ring gear, it's time to install the assembly into the 3rd member housing. Unfortunately, I was too busy working to take pictures of these steps, but I will try to be as detailed as possible. Insert the diff/ring gear assembly into the 3rd member housing. Remember to always place the bearings on races, so they do not get damaged. If you followed the steps on the page above (link), then your adjusters will already be in the right place. If you've had to remove the ring gear for any reason, you will need to remove the adjusters and set-up the gears again. We did this. The FSM calls for 0.08" of backlash in the ring and pinion. Once you have the differential securely mounted in the 3rd member, you will need to set up your dial indicator, with the pin as perpendicular as possible to the edge of the ring gear tooth. Move the ring gear to the far side of its play and set the indicator to 0. Adjust the ring gear back to the other end of its play and record the number displayed. Next, apply some of the Permatex Prussian Blue to 3-4 teeth of the ring gear, on both the drive and coast sides. Apply some resistance to the gear, 30-40lbs is sufficient. and rotate the pinion through the compound in both directions a few times. The compound will get rubbed off where the gears are making contact. You want your gear contact to be as centered as possible on both the drive and coast sides of the ring gear. Our first try, the backlash was spot on at 0.08", but the mesh pattern was poor. We noticed that the adjusters were allowing some lateral play in the differential, so we took it apart, moved the adjusters around, remeasured the backlash, and checked the pattern again. It was perfect. 0.078" backlash, and a perfectly centered mesh. If you don't have to remove the pinion from the 3rd member, and you're reusing the same ring gear, it makes setting up the gears much much easier. Once you've got the gears set up, and the 3rd member is properly assembled, and everything is torqued to spec, it's time to reinstall the 3rd member into the axle housing. Apply the Ultra-Black RTV Sealant around the mating surface on the axle housing, going around all of the studs. Again, installing the 3rd member is a two person job, as it's heavy and awkward. The studs will generally not let you simply slide the 3rd member directly on, so it may require a couple of light taps on the pinion flange to set it all the way down. Hand tighten the nuts and snug them to the point that the RTV starts to ooze out the side. Let the RTV set up for approximately 1-1.5 hours. This is a good opportunity to change the front diff oil, and grab a bite to eat. Once the RTV is set up, torque down the nuts to spec. Apply some fresh grease to the wheel seals on the axles, then reinstall them. Then fill the diff with fresh 75w90 GL4 LSD Approved gear oil, or 80w90 LSD approved gear oil. We used 75w90 Mobil1 LS synthetic. Reassemble the brakes, and you're almost done! Final Steps: Now that you've got everything back together, there's still one critical step before you can put the wheels back on and go for a test drive. Remember this picture? See all the wet stuff on the end of the axle housing? That's brake fluid. Your wheel cylinders are also empty by now. It is absolutely vital that you properly bleed the brakes, or you will not be able to stop. Once you've bled the brakes, put the wheels back on, and go for a short test drive and listen for any strange noises. Notes and Observations: - This job, while not overly difficult, is time consuming and requires forethought. Be sure you have at least a full day to devote to it. - This is a very dirty operation. I'd suggest gloves, and long clothes, if feasible. - Take your time, don't rush the critical steps, like brake setup and gear setup. Asterisks: *1 - The Factory breakaway rating of the R50 LSD is ~76ft-lbs. The factory rating of the Frontier Desert Runner LSD is 230ft-lbs (vs 210ft-lbs for the standard Frontier). Estimating the with the addition of 2 disks and 2 plates per side to the Frontier differential. *2 - Exception: Side Gears References and Further Reading: XterraGuy LSD Page NPORA How To - Rebuilding your LSD for More Strength FND4PTH.Com - Photo Gallery Nissan Factory Service Manual - 1999.5 Pathfinder Nissan Factory Service Manual - 2002 Frontier Haynes Repair Manual - Nissan Trucks 1996-2004, Pathfinder, Frontier and Xterra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoPathyGo Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Wow! Impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Holy crap, Dan. That is impressive. Thank you so much! Beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganAve Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 You decided on doing this mod instead of going with an air locker? How do you think it would compare? Any subjective comparisons to your stock setup yet? Very impressive idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vengeful Posted April 20, 2009 Author Share Posted April 20, 2009 ARB Air Locker - $870 ARB Air Compressor - $300 Total: $1170 + supplies Installation Time - 16 hours Frontier LSD Diff - $200 Total: $200 + supplies Installation Time - 7 hours I'll let Mike chime in on the rest of his justification, but driving it before and after. The thing is 10x better. Going around tight curves at moderate acceleration, the inside wheel skips on the pavement like with a locker. The VQ35 doesn't produce enough power to spin the inside tire in 2nd gear going making a turn. It's REALLY tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02silverpathy Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 5 spd VQ + Super LSD = Jealous! Congrats Mang! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01silvapathy Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 WOW, any idea on price, I know it will vary a bit, but it must certainly be cheaper then a Air Locker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vengeful Posted April 20, 2009 Author Share Posted April 20, 2009 That will depend on where you source your parts from. But, for this example, the complete Frontier 3rd member was ~$200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleurys Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 ARB Air Locker - $870ARB Air Compressor - $300 Total: $1170 + supplies Installation Time - 16 hours don't want to burst your bubble, but these are not really exact.. rd135 locker is 720 air compressor is 129 installation time is 8 hours... but still, the new lsd is way less anyway.. can't wait to hear how it compares... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vengeful Posted April 20, 2009 Author Share Posted April 20, 2009 don't want to burst your bubble, but these are not really exact.. rd135 locker is 720 air compressor is 129 installation time is 8 hours... but still, the new lsd is way less anyway.. can't wait to hear how it compares... My bubble's not burst. You're still way off. If you can get an ARB for $720 these days, buy 100. Likewise with the compressor. From AC: ARB Air Locker - $840 https://www.4x4parts.com/catalog/product_in...products_id=110 ARB Air Compressor - $250 https://www.4x4parts.com/catalog/product_in...roducts_id=2784 From Rocky-Road: Locker - $835 Compressor - $248 From 4Wheel Parts: Locker - $966.99 Compressor - $243.99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavefromOZ Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Top job fellas, well done. i got my ARB RD135 for $745 shipped. Crazy Ed's Performance i got my ARB CKMA12 compressor (the heavy-duty locker+tire model) for $126 shipped. All Jeep Price is cheaper than Dan listed, bit still 4x price of this mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vengeful Posted April 20, 2009 Author Share Posted April 20, 2009 i got my ARB RD135 for $745 shipped. Crazy Ed's Performance i got my ARB CKMA12 compressor (the heavy-duty locker+tire model) for $126 shipped. All Jeep Nice find. MSRP According to ARB is still $870/$300 respectively, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OfftourRoadie96 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Very Impressive!, Are there any same type modifications for the early R50's (96-98), with an early, lets say Xterra??? or Frontier (not sure if they had them back in 96?) Or, does the Air Locker System work on Early Year R50's???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleurys Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 If you can get an ARB for $720 these days, buy 100. complete off road .com....it's in my basement awaiting install... but it's ok, it's not the point of this topic.. I think you did a hell of a top job on this. The procedure is top notch also. you're insipring alot of people here, including me. good show. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
180sx Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Wow...impressive. Sooooo...do plan on commiting services for this? Like, build the LSD for someone (of course payment would be in order) or is this too much of a task to do? jose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FUELER Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 very nice mod. i'd much rather prefer a strong LSD over an air locker - less hassle and no stopping to engage the compressor/locker ill have to use this guide someday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vengeful Posted April 20, 2009 Author Share Posted April 20, 2009 Very Impressive!, Are there any same type modifications for the early R50's (96-98), with an early, lets say Xterra??? or Frontier (not sure if they had them back in 96?) Or, does the Air Locker System work on Early Year R50's???? The air locker will work in any 33-spline H233b axle, 1996-2004 Pathfinder, 1999-2004 Frontier V6, and 2000-2004 Xterra V6. They all share the same rear axle. Thus, why the LSD from the Frontier will swap into the R50. The Axle in your 1996 is identical to the 2001. You will need two LSDs to complete this, or an assortment of extra plates and discs. It just happened that the LSD we used was from a 2002 Frontier, and it just happened that the vehicle it was going into was a 2001. The Frontier made it's debut in 1998 as a 4-cylinder only truck with the C200 rear axle. Nissan added a V6 to the lineup in late 1999. Wow...impressive. Sooooo...do plan on commiting services for this? Like, build the LSD for someone (of course payment would be in order) or is this too much of a task to do? jose Uh...no. I don't really have any where to do this, and finding the parts for reasonable money is tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 nice, would it be out of the question to swap in a wd21 lsd? they are pretty tight out of the box. I guess you might need to switch axle shafts too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxman0324 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Wow Dan, what a great write up...this is very detailed... Let me just say that anyone who wants to do this, don't be afraid, it is really quite simple...I think the hardest parts were taking the time to make sure the gears had all the proper spacing and positioning and the damn springs on the drum brakes that hold the shoes on...otherwise it is a 2 man job but it is really straightforward and nothing very difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxman0324 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 You decided on doing this mod instead of going with an air locker? How do you think it would compare? Any subjective comparisons to your stock setup yet? Very impressive idea... Well first of all I am a college student, so dropping $1k or so on anything is hard to justify, and for my use I probably wouldn't care for it much. Let me explain by telling you how I use my truck. It is almost all on road or gravel road, the most off roading it will see for a couple of years is light trails and some shallow muddy areas, nothing that I would really need a locker, but areas that a tighter LSD would probably make the trip much easier. As far as the review of before after, here it is: On dry road, turning onto another road where 3/4 throttle in 2nd gear at 10mph or so would spin the inside tire. With the tighter LSD, 1/2 throttle you can hear that tire skipping that locked diffs make, and at 3/4 throttle you can feel and hear both of the tires grabbing rather than spinning the inside tire. Those type of situations are probably the only I will notice a benefit to the tighter LSD on dry pavement. On a little dirt road by my house there is a little mound of dirt that I have the clearance for, but it would lift one of the rear tires and I couldn't make it in 2WD before, it went right up with the tighter LSD in 2wd. It is raining now, so later when I am out of class I will comment on sideways I can get now... 5 spd VQ + Super LSD = Jealous! Congrats Mang! Thanks Chris, sometime this summer you will be able to drive it you can tell the difference for yourself... ya, the LSD re-pack is a mod i wanted to do, but until now there was never any good info on what exactly needed to be done. not trying to discount from this amazing write-up, but i just wanted to post the links to where i found such great deals. If you want the spare friction plates, I have the a bunch of leftover ones (I can take a pic for you) I can send them to ya for like $20 plus shipping, I will ship all of them that I have. And I remember reading that you were going to do it, and it inspired at least me (who knows what motivates Dan ) to try and mix and match to make it as strong as possible. Thanks for the inspiration very nice mod. i'd much rather prefer a strong LSD over an air locker - less hassle and no stopping to engage the compressor/locker ill have to use this guide someday I recommend it, I think it was worth what I paid, and gaining the experience of doing another type of modification (diffs ripped apart and what not) was great. Ripping apart the rear gears is not hard, do not be afraid to do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxman0324 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 I also wanted to throw this in: when I refilled the rear diff, it only took maybe 3.5qt to fill it up instead of the factory recommended 5 and 7/8, I have no idea why, but I am driving it for a week and checking to see if for some reason there was an air pocket that needed to be released... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02silverpathy Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 (edited) Very well could be an air pocket heading toward those outter seals...that fluid will circulate back into those areas. No doubt I will want to do this in the future, hopefully before Winter comes again! -->Good call, no worries---you can always drive around FWD (4HI), with the rear drive shaft removed! **I can't wait to drive your rig** A 5 spd swap is a pain on the VQ since they have the variable length intake, or maybe you could just remove those butterflies, as the ECU could still vaccuum open them as it wanted, hmmm... Edited April 20, 2009 by 02silverpathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxman0324 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 No doubt I will want to do this in the future, hopefully before Winter comes again! Good call, no worries---you can always drive around FWD (4HI), with the rear drive shaft removed! I can't wait to drive your rig....a 5 spd swap is a pain on the VQ since they have the variable length intake, or maybe you could just remove those butterflies, hmmm... Well I figured more than half of the recommended is enough for the short trips I do, so I will check it weekly for a couple of weeks and if its still full then I won't worry about it...even though I have no idea why that would happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoPathyGo Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Well first of all I am a college student, so dropping $1k or so on anything is hard to justify, and for my use I probably wouldn't care for it much. Let me explain by telling you how I use my truck. It is almost all on road or gravel road, the most off roading it will see for a couple of years is light trails and some shallow muddy areas, nothing that I would really need a locker, but areas that a tighter LSD would probably make the trip much easier. Honestly, I don't think you guys need to justify that mod or defend yourselves. It was cheap, freaking cool and sounds like a great experience. Awesome work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 I also wanted to throw this in: when I refilled the rear diff, it only took maybe 3.5qt to fill it up instead of the factory recommended 5 and 7/8, I have no idea why, but I am driving it for a week and checking to see if for some reason there was an air pocket that needed to be released... That's because it's 5 7/8 PINTS not QUARTS for the diff. The tranny doesn't even take that much fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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